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Author Topic: Cant Z.506B  (Read 43485 times)

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Epervier

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Re: Cant Z.506B
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2012, 11:24:25 AM »

C'est possible de faire un patch pour mettre le cockpit du Cant Z 1007 pour rendre ce bombardier pilotable (4.09 et 4.10)
There are specialists in cockpits.
It's not me.
So I expect a specialist takes care!
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If your results do not live up to your expectations, tell yourself that the great oak was once an acorn too. - Lao Zi -

David Prosser

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Re: Cant Z.506B
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2012, 05:37:38 AM »

[DJP]  Thanks for this plane. It will be taking to the skies near Hendaya soon. It'll do two or three bombing missions. I'll use it in other campaigns where applicable too.


cheers

David Prosser

Mick

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Re: Cant Z.506B
« Reply #50 on: February 29, 2012, 02:20:37 AM »

Could somebody please check this 4.09 bug with an unmodded 4.11 version of the game?

After take off the AI Cant is unable to fly above 100 m (whatever the set altitude is in the .mis file) and thus doesn't comply to its way points, and the engines seem to be on idle instead of 2000/2500 rpm, this could explain why she can't ( :D) gain altitude ...

THX in advance  ;)
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Dakpilot

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Re: Cant Z.506B
« Reply #51 on: February 29, 2012, 02:58:41 AM »

Can only confirm that in 4.101 DBW1.71   AI takeoff is a struggle and will only maintain 100ft or so, I swapped this one (4.10 version) for a "substitute" JU-52 in a campaign, thought it great to have the real A/C as intended   :)  but the takeoff was across a bay, and it always crashed into the low spit of land, however much of a run (or set .mis alt) it had. With jiver soundmod for DBW it also sounds a bit "down on power"  :-\

Cheers Dakpilot

P.S. this in no way meant to denigrate the work to put this in 4.10 Thankyou  :)
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juanmalapuente

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Re: Cant Z.506B
« Reply #52 on: February 29, 2012, 03:36:14 AM »

I had the same problem. AI take off from a bay almost impossible. Several km sliding on the water and eventually stuck on the shore.
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benitomuso

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Re: Cant Z.506B
« Reply #53 on: February 29, 2012, 04:01:31 AM »

I think that this should be a problem with the FM, particularly with the .emd definition of the engines of the plane. The power (or the maximum rpm) delivered by them is quite low.

Perhaps nobody ever checked it before releasing, and being and AI Only is not so easy to see these problems.

A basic comparison with the FM of the Cant 1007 should reveal what is unproper with the 506.

Regards,
                    Pablo
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OberstDanjeje

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Re: Cant Z.506B
« Reply #54 on: February 29, 2012, 05:25:31 AM »

Aracno said there is a bug in the FM and will be fixed in the future patch (probable 4.11.2 or so)
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Mick

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Re: Cant Z.506B
« Reply #55 on: February 29, 2012, 05:57:09 AM »

THX guys, I 'll wait for the fix (and then Epervier's 4.09 extraction) because that beautiful plane really deserves to fly ...
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Dreamk

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Re: Cant Z.506B
« Reply #56 on: February 29, 2012, 06:10:10 AM »

All the Bristol Jupiter/pegasus engine family and its related Gnome and Rhone, AlfaRomeo and Piaggio derivatives are very badly modellized. Same for the Mercury family (very strange entries there!). For the Gnome 14  and variants it's even worse.
I have suceeded to get the original documentation of these engines from the French Air Museum Documentation Center, and some more technical material from the Flight archive of the period, and with the help of George1991 who got Rumanian original data for the K14 we are trying to put some order in these emd files.
The most obvious mistakes are:
1) First of all using uncorrect datas from wikipedia or other web sources (copying mistakes is probably the most popular activity on the web) - this is not new, the English language "specialized" publications of the seventies are at the origine of quite a number of these long-lasting mistakes. With teh present situation we are flooded by these mistaken data, and it is really compulsory to try to go to original constructor data or to datas published by official sources of the period concerned for technicians/mechanics/pilots

2) The basic rpm ("point fixe", 'idle speed engine run") generally used seems to have been based upon....modern car vehicle engines than upon real historical data - it is way too low (between 200-400 rpm usually) while in reality it was quite high (around 800 rpm for the 9 cyl, around 1200 rpm and more for the 14cyl).

3) Another main mistake is a lack of understanding that flaot carburators were the most frequently used and that all float carburators do not behave similarly under negative Gs.. This comes from a lack of knowledge on the differences between various carburators: the  Zenith (and Claudel) float carburators, the Stromberg ("Zenith Stromberg") float carburator but behaving to some extent like the later "shelling hole carburator, above  when used in duplex installation) and the much later out of the period Bendix-Stromberg pressure carburator, not speaking of the early SU updraught "float type" carburator, suction carburator and other variants.

4) Another source of mistake is the engine power data entries in the emd - a confusion between the various types of power definitions :

Nominal Power ("Puissance nominale") - continuous power under standard conditions of utilizations (altitude, rpm, temperature)

Theoretical output at sea level ("equivalent de puissance") ("potenza ideale") (Theoretical power at sea level) - power on groundm at sea level, without compressor, with full throttle and at nimnal rpm regime

Power at take off (Puissance au decollage")
Take off power ("Rated power") - the maximum power permitted for a limited period of time during the take off of the aircraft (generally a 1 to 5 minutes period)

Maximal Power (Puissance Maximale)
Maximum Continuous Rated power ("METO - "Maximum Except Take OFF" power) -  the highest power that can be maintained/ allowed continuously.

WEP power - power obtained after injection of a chemical additive, for a shor period of time

Cruising flight power - 75% of take off power at 90% of maximum rpm
Economical cruising flight power - 65% of take off power

The Il2 game engine uses formulas to calculate the power outpout from the data entered in the emd file - for instance maximal continuous rated power is generally around 1.3 the nominal power at sea level. The boost power (the over 100% throttle, not the WEP) can be used to simualte take off extra power (but most often 1 value of 103% will be better in accordance with hiostorical reality than a value of 110%) and so on....
Interesting these formulas do not use the ATA manifold entries but calculate manifold entries on teh basis of the real critical entries, the rpm regimes at various heights/power - If one include an ATA rpm relationship in the emd file, to compell the game engine to use a given power curve, one msut be very careful, and in practice, as a result, this will be a mistake more often than not......

Take also as a rule of thumb that in the absence of compressor power output decreases by 10% with every 1000m of atitude
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redfox

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Re: Cant Z.506B
« Reply #57 on: February 29, 2012, 09:23:00 AM »

DreamK

Great stuff and a really good read. Certainly agree about a/c tech publications of the seventies (include the sixties). People like myself had no choice but to accept what we considered to be accurate data from eminent authors. Its only in the last two decades that we now understand that a lot of their data was more hysterical than historical.

Quite surprised about the low idle rpm (200 rpm) many of the emds are based on. Even 4-cylinder in-lines (motor cars) of the sixties wouldn't idle below 800rpm. Good luck with your research.

Cheers - Redfox
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Mick

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Re: Cant Z.506B
« Reply #58 on: February 29, 2012, 09:24:05 AM »

THX a lot for this very well documented analysis DreamK, you should work for the DT mate ...  :P
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Epervier

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Re: Cant Z.506B
« Reply #59 on: February 29, 2012, 10:39:11 AM »

A temporary solution will be tested by Mick ... I await his response for broadcast the new FM broadcast!
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If your results do not live up to your expectations, tell yourself that the great oak was once an acorn too. - Lao Zi -
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