Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Aviar]

It looks like the elevator authority was increased by quite a bit. One negative result is that it is frustratingly difficult to trim for level flight now. The Sabre used to be a very stabile platform but now I find myself fighting the trim constantly. This results in a lot of bobbing up and down.

In RC1, I could trim it for a reasonably level flight very easily. Now the nose is either pitching up or down at a fast rate. It seems I need to trim it every 5-10 seconds. That doesn't seem right. In fact, it's not fun to fly anymore. I actually shut down my server because it was getting too frustrating.

I did some more offline testing on my own and there is definitely a change in the RC2 FM. I had to dampen the elevator axis on my joystick to try and compensate but it's still bobbing up and down. Plus, I just can't trim it out anymore. One click elevator trim UP and the nose rises too quickly. One click elevator trim DOWN and the nose is pitching into the ground. There is no way to get a fairly level trim. Basically, there is too much trim associated per click.

Some people may be happy with this FM, I don't know. For me, it's just not fun to fly anymore.

Aviar

[Honcho2159]

I have no problem flying the Sabre.  Before you take off, set about 12 clicks DOWN elevator.  Once airborne place your gunsight pipper on the horizon at the airspeed and power setting that you want to cruise at and then let go of your joystick.  Watch how fast or slow your pipper climbs.  If its fast, add in another 5 clicks of DOWN elevator.  If its slow, add in another 3 clicks of DOWN elevator trim.  If your pipper drops below the horizon in the same manner, just do the opposite.  If that doesn't do the trick, perhaps its your stick thats too loose or your placing too much pressure on the stick in the first place.

[SAS~Anto]

You need to be specific fellas. WHICH SABRE? There are 9 different models in this pack! Each with quite different performance.

The Sabres which the elevator response were touched were the CACs and the F-86K. If you are having issues with any others, then I'm sorry, that is placebo. Besides reducing airbrake effectiveness, the USAF Sabres and Fury did not change from RC1 to RC2 (in that case, buttons 8.7 to buttons 8.. As for this pitching up/down issue with increasing speed, that did occur and it was made worse when drop tanks were carried. If you don't believe I can dig out a set of pilot reports from RAAF pilots. At high transonic speeds, this behaviour can become quite violent (as the RAAFies called it, the 'Jesus Christ' manouevre).

To clarify so we don't have these issues again, these are the exact fixes that were applied:
CAC Sabres - Adjusted Supersonic Drag code to correct small speed issue + elevator adjustment
F-86K - Adjusted Supersonic Drag code to correct slower speed issue, engine power increased to correct value, wing size corrected, elevator adjusted. Now has proper top speed, rate of climb and turn performance
F-86D - Models added
Airbrakes F-86 - Reduced to realistic values
MiG-15 - Reduced to realistic values
MiG-17s Airbrake although realistic size, due to lighter aircraft drag, airbrakes were too effective. Therefore airbrake size has been reduced upto 20%. Still effective and more so than the Sabre.

[Narvik]

F-86D - Models added

??? I can't find a "D" model in air.ini. Is it still incomplete but included in RC2?

[Killer Ghost]

I think they are just getting ready for it.

[F22-Raptor-2006]

F-86D - Models added

??? I can't find a "D" model in air.ini. Is it still incomplete but included in RC2?

That post was about flightmodels, only placeholder F-86D flight models were added.

[SAS~Tom2]

Hi gang..
As you guys know I love Sabres.
..from time to time I jump into an Jet Era plane beside Histomod.

Your FMs are much better now than they used to be initially.
Checked the new FMs and indeed that pitching frequency frequency for F-86F-40/F-25s with slats-which I flew-popped into my eyes as well.

I know it's not a source to develop FMs after, but in some of the videos I collected over the past year, you get quite an impression of how a real Sabre flies.

This one is for an restored F-86A:
From ca 04.30 you get a dedicated view inpit of how a Sabre flies.



Same here, airshow video of F-86F. Pit and outside views merged..


Same vid completely in pit.


Another one..



You'll have to search a while to find better inpit vids.
That was one tiny part of videos, data stuff and references I collected. Why not share it with you as well..

[Honcho2159]

Thanks Tom..I enjoyed those videos.   

[Lt.Wolf]

First of all what Anto has posted is what I wrote regarding the new changes. The changes made to elevators was more of how quickly and responsive the elevators are and that was done on the K model as the performance in the turn should only be a slight improvement over the F-86F-40. The amount changed by should not affect things as much as you think, reduced the turn performance say by .5-1G at low speed.

The rest of the Sabres and MiGs have only had their airbrakes corrected and after flying them more, handling and landing with airbrakes is stable and useful.

As for the harsh pitching if it is an issue has existed from the first update since the original release. So a placebo affect.

Aviar it is unfortunate that you have closed your server, if you remember I was talking to you there under the name Pickles. You should host that server it was fun. Perhaps unplugging your joystick and then reconnecting and also neutralising all trim before takeoff may give you better results. There is more than enough trim play to keep the nose down.

I am however going to experiment and see if that can be improve to gain a better balance of the aircraft however as it is with the FM at the moment if I start playing with one thing there is ten other things to re-adjust and I bet that you will loose the turn performance.

Edit: I did a test and although the aircraft is more stable, level and requires less trim, however performance above 300mph IAS is hindered and high altitude is near impossible to fight with.

It would be interesting to find out if any one else is having such issues.

Note: As Anto said there are many models, each one is similar however each is slightly different. Some being better at say turning but not as good at climbing, better at high speed and those that are better at low speed and lower altitudes and so on each different for the player style and mission. The differences are not major but a small advantage so please be specific.

[Aviar]

Text Deleted

[Lt.Wolf]

Don't stress Aviar, please don't misread the tone of my comments. Purely helpful and understanding. As you are convinced that there was a change there is nothing I could do or say to prove otherwise as any thing I produce would be disputed by your self. What must be done is if you were able or another is to take the FM from RC1 and then compare it to RC2 and you would notice that all that was touched is the airbrake. I am not and no one else is calling you a noob and many of us on this forum have been playing the game since the day it was released. The Fury is the most unque model out of the entire series. The wing is completely different to all the others and produces more lift, better low speed handling, the second worst climber compared to the F-86A/E due to the weight.

Perhaps it is not your equipment, perhaps it is not the 1956 pack and maybe down to another issue and perhaps there may indeed be an issue with the AC. But after checking there has not been a change, there was not any need to do so and I have no reason to lie so therefore it must be something else.

What would be useful is if other people who are able to switch between RC1 and RC2 and do the following tests. Unplug their joystick, remove any profile you are using and upon spawn on an airfield neutralise all trim and try and compare at a set speed and altitude how much trim is required to keep the nose down. Note that one click of a key will not be the exact same as another. You may press the key and release it a fraction of a second longer and could throw off the results so as with science please use 3 tests and average the results.

Joystick profile use is something I disagree to and find counter productive and a hinderance when dogfighting. Learn the plane and its flaws rather than removing them. The tests need to be standardised so I use 100% sensitivity across the whole range of controls.

Again Aviar my apologies if you have misunderstood my tone, I do assure you that no changes other than airbrake were made and that would not cause the results.
Btw my name in game I think was Penny.

[Aviar]

No problem at all. I deleted the text from my last post so we can all move on. No need for any additional drama. I'm sure everything will work out fine.

Aviar