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[Ala13_ManOWar]

Great idea! But be careful where you look for Lufwaffe's RLM colors, there are many sources over the net and most of them are mistaken...

Any help arguing for the right set of colours will be most appreciated I think

Yep, I knew this would happen...

I'm out of home for a time and have no sources, but before this post I was thinking in make a color chart using as source paint colour chip chart from K A Merrick's "Luftwaffe camouflage & markings", not 1975 version but 2006 (I think it's 2006). I scaned paint colour charts and that's what I use for my skins.


About 84 after all it seems to exist... Merrick himself said in the past it doesn't exist but now with new evidences he not only say it existed but include it in the paint color chart made supposedly with original formulas. I know that book have mistakes, but it's a really deep research and other theories I have seen are only based in author opinion, not evidences... that's not a research. Old investigation said 84 had to exist because always new Luftwaffe camouflage colors appear in "sets", upper camouflage color plus lower color, for example 70-71-65, 74-75-76, so 82-83 new colors had to have a new lower color... this is not en evidence but a theory and for many years some researchers said it had to exist, others said it's only a degraded 76. As said Merrick was in the side of degraded 76, but in that last book he have evidences, documents, even paint chips that points to it have exist... I believe that more than theories without evidence. Multiple 76 shades (that are proven) doesn't mean also 84 didn't exist.

Anyway when at home I will try to make that PSD colour chart from paint scan, may be not the better way to get them, but results in skins is good I think.

S!

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Yes, when I bought that book a few years ago I didn't think at all it'll be out of stock so quick and now is very demanded .

Also, if somebody knows the better way to get the real colors scaning charts information will be much apreciated.

S!

[Phas3e]

I never got the classic colours vol 2 paint chips to scan very well

but heres my take on the Monogram chart



Boelcke posted this link recently which is usefull for comparison

http://www.cybermodeler.com/color/rlm_comp2.shtml

As for '84' I've yet to see a modern reference to it being 84, Crandall's 190D offers what I think is the best info,
it was a poor pigment but was mass produced to the point it be became its own unnamed colour, recent restorations and newly found colour stills show its use on the uppersides
of aircraft as a 'sunlight dapple' forrest camouflage, and messerschmitt Regesnsburg used it as fuselage undersides on 109s and 262s.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Great adds!! Any of those charts, even with slightly (or not so) differences in color shades are OK for skining purposes. Anyway I'm not sure the way charts have been done, but I see differences with original Merrick's in some colors. I'll do mine when it's possible.


Interesting that Mongram chart. That "RLM 76 creme" I think is RLM 77 in Merrrick's chart. But I suppose that's another discuss...

S!

[Knochenlutscher]

I rembember one sole Thread over at AAA, back in the days, a very small Thread, but this one here turned out to be a profund way on this Topic. Congrats gentlemen.
May I add an example of real and virtual colour, as some habit seems to be simply copy pasted all over the net,
regardless if using original data, colourchips or profund Software.
Just using Pallettes or Colourchips from any Bird found in the backyard, scanning or reproducing as professional as possible, might not help to overcome some thoughts that need to be made.
If I'm going to restore a 1:1 bird that's the profund way, but not for print-media, digital arts, scale-models. We learned this in our first Semester at the Arts-Academy, in a course at our colour-design faculty, one of only 3 existing in Europe. Taking care about colours.

My example shows the RAL 6013 Schilfgrün based upon Joaf Efratis restoration efforts on behalf the Israeli S-199.
The colour of this website:
http://101squadron.com/
The author of the following claims it to be an exact as possible reproduction of the RAL 6013. Yes according the pics he made in real, under real lighting situtions. But what is real when moved into digital world? Does it stay real?
What we might see, as far as we enter digital colour work, the real tends to be very bright, actually too bright to call it real in virtual.
For that example to check virtual realness it's easy to use the pipette and ask RAL C1 Digital Lab what colour to use for digital work, printed media, I use my RAL licensed Software and get RAL 1000 Grünbeige as closest match?!  ???
Yepp, sth. is described as the scale effect known to happen when painting scaled models in the real colour, to overcome we need to brighten or darken to get a real to close match.

This should not act as a throwing over Hickocks, Merricks or Ullmanns profund and exceptional work, but to get Skinners, artists in general to think a bit more about colour problems. There is no grab and go solution from the NASM workshop or Flieglack producer straight to digital, virtual workspace.
Simply relying on these real sources is no match for our virtual world. Make yourself familiar with the light-situation in IL-2, how it differs from the real, how it changes real colour, if you know what I'm talking about, you begin to think about a problem worth to be worked on, for everyone out there working on this topic.
Just check out the Me 262 preseries in it's allover RLM 76 and let it get the real, the effect might be the same as on the 101 sqn site, to me not surprising.

What pallette, of the 4 we got presented here http://www.cybermodeler.com/color/rlm_comp2.shtml
you take as your starting point, is your choice, for the differeing greens, it's simply just another Flieglack producer from where the paintchips come or according the real formula, who used other pigments. All 4 are based and researched the best way. No worry, only thing, the last Merrick publication is too bright, due to lamination. Remember the prob above, this becomes sticky.
That they need further tweaking, adjustments, refining to match IL-2 should be a personal goal and deal to every Skinner,
simply get into it, but make your own virtual pallette of the real-to-close.

Another thought might be when moving IL-2 matched colours into CloD, if you read my thoughts well you should get aware it's the same prob, and can't be handled just by copy pasting, someone must tweak again from the start according this game's lighting, it's different from IL-2. Ever wondered about the Barbie colours in CloD? Frightening.
It's a bit work, but worth, I did this after making mistakes myself, simply taking pallettes and wondering why my stuff looks strange.
What about fresh colours or wheathered? Stuff like that.

It's no flaming, finger-pointing, bumping or sth., but constructive criticism.
After all we speak about digital art, what we do there and how we achieve your work, is not important. But even there some thoughts must be made, like in the real arts or world.
thanks for this Thread, your patience and thinking more about colour
Have a nice Day

[LuseKofte]

No problem, I'm new, so I want to contribute and give back where I've received so much from this community

+1 Well said

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I rembember one sole Thread over at AAA, back in the days, a very small Thread, but this one here turned out to be a profund way on this Topic. Congrats gentlemen.
May I add an example of real and virtual colour, as some habit seems to be simply copy pasted all over the net,
regardless if using original data, colourchips or profund Software.
Just using Pallettes or Colourchips from any Bird found in the backyard...

...

...It's no flaming, finger-pointing, bumping or sth., but constructive criticism.
After all we speak about digital art, what we do there and how we achieve your work, is not important. But even there some thoughts must be made, like in the real arts or world.
thanks for this Thread, your patience and thinking more about colour
Have a nice Day

+100

I haven't seen that post before. Yes mate, you are absolutely right and explained it perfectly. In fact my weak point is I haven't studied anything in arts and I wish to know a lot more about colors, how they work, how they change with the light and so... And in my case it's not only for some skins, I'm drawing profiles for a book based mostly in color samples found in crash sites, and I'm getting really big problems not for make it the exact color, that's simply impossible, but for them to look like the closest possible to the real thing I have samples and even that...

For skinning purposes at first I tryed not to modify "original" colour I get with scan, but thats a poor aproximation!! firstly scan is not perfect... But also using color directly what you get in your screen in Il-2 wasn't very good, then I slowly started to modify colors trying a better looking. But even that is not a perfect formula!! light colors you have to dark, darker colors you have to enlight, but in what way you light or dark color? simply adding light (white)? or you should modify also saturation? but then what you are using is not the real color, if you modify saturation and white it's another different color not "original"!!!

Finally you are right, the "real thing" is try to get skin looking in screen the better you can with what you see in your hand, but it isn't easy always to get that. For example you can see my aproximation to RLM 70/71 in Bf-109 early pack default skin, depending on your screen may be you see them very dark, but it's the "real thing"!!!

S!

[RDDR Hangar19]

Well said guys.
I only have The Monogram Painting guide 33 to 45 however Phas3e, Captain Farrel and myself have gathered and put together more than one set of paint guides. I think the work that Jerry Crandell and Tom Tullis have done is really first rate investigative work as well.
Researching these colours is quite an inigma.
The early researchers Ken Merrick, Geof Pentland,John Beaman and Tom Hitchcock were the first to retire Richard Green and lay
a real foundation for scientific research on Luftwaffe colours,however no matter how many paintchips are removed from the surviving aircraft today and put under the scope,paint does degrade.It has now been 70 odd years .
Lastly, even though there are a very few RLM paint books in existance,  a number of later Defensive colours are not a part of the factorys collection of chips.
RDDR