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[Thunda]

Fantastic- its my personal 'nerd' subject- British Nightfighters- and I have been researching a friend of mines Grandfather, a Squadron Leader G Bennett who was a navigator/Radar operator.

He started out on Blenheims with 54OTU, then moved to Beaufighters with 68 Sqn at RAF Coltishall under the famous Max Aitken, and was involved in the 'Baedecker raids' of '42, shooting down He111's Ju88's and Do217's. He then moved via the FIU at Ford and some Fighter Command Nav/Radar instruction which he gave to new operators, to 96 sqn an onto the Mosquito. Him and his pilot- usually Sqn Ldr Parker -Rees flew in the 'baby blitz'- the Steinbock raids of early '44, claiming more Do217s and an He177 as well as an Me410 and a Fw190.

Their usual mount was a Mosquito XII or XIII with a 'thimble nose'- the best looking one I think- before moving to the XIX with the 'bull nose' as the radar developed. Heres a photo of one of their aircraft- a very well worn, purposeful MkXIII with a bull nose at RAF Ford MM682:


I have this photo in hi-res if you need a copy for your work, sputnikshock.

They played a role in the V1 campaign, shooting down many at night (and being brought down into the channel by one after shrapnel from the explosion punctured their radiators). I have his log book and it is facinating. He shares 5 kills with his first 68sqn pilot, P.Allen, and another 3 with Parker-Rees at 96sqn as well as 9 V1's.
These later model night-fighting Mossies played a huge role in the ADGB against night raiders and V1's, and would be a good addition to the game. Hopefully we could one day get a flight model that truly represents the powerful, fast aircraft this was.

[Kopfdorfer]

I am very pleased to hear you are making this conversion, Sputnik.
I feel this is an important missing midwar gap in NF development for the allies (though personally I believe the NF Mk XIII would be a wider true representative - as far as I understand, the MKXII was a makeshift lash up and the MkXIII was the actual production model).
Both the MkXII and the MKXIII filled the mid war Mosquito NF gap - as you say the NF Mk XIXI and NF Mk 30 saw only a couple of months service, and then only with a couple of squadrons.
I think this is an important variant and I look forward to it very much.

NF Mk XII - note " lash-up" nose to house radar


NF Mk XIII - production radome nose


NF MK XIX


Congrats.
This will be a real treat. (especially when the Mossie fms get overhauled!!!)

Thanks again.

Kopfdorfer

[sputnikshock]

Ok, so let's quickly go through the NF Mossies.

- We have NF.II, which was based on the F.II. Merlin 21/23 engines. We have it in game already.
- Next is NF.XII, based on NF.II but different armament (no Brownings), centimetric radar (AI Mk.VIII) in thimble nose radome.
- Then NF.XIII. Same as NF.XII, but with FB.VI wing (= droptanks available), still Merlin 21/23 engines. Not sure about the radome type, thimble or bulldog. Thimble or bullnose radome.
- NF.XVII. Same as NF.XII, but bulldog nose with AI Mk.X radar; NF.II wing=no dropanks.
- NF.XIX. Same as NF.XIII (= FB.VI wing = droptanks), Merlin 25 engines, bulldog nose with either AI Mk.VIII or Mk.X
- NF.30. High altitude Merlins. We have this one in game also.

Now since both Merlin 23 and Merlin 25 engines are represented by the FB.VI flightmodel in game, and radar types come from the C&C mod anyway, the NF.XVII/XIX I propose can be used for everything that had a bulldog nose, and Merlin 23/25. If your picture really shows a XIII, than it means at least some of them had bulldog noses The last 100 or so NF.XIII were produced with the bullnose radome, so the XVII/XIX could be used to represent these as well.
The only difference that remains between XIII, XVII and XIX is whether there where provisions for droptanks. This of course can be easily controlled by the player through loadout options.

In other words, the only one missing is the XII (and some of the XIIIs) with thimble noses.

Let's quickly look at production numbers:
NF.II (incl. F.II): 494 built
NF.XII: 97 converted from NF.II
NF.XIII: 260 built
NF.XVII: 99 converted from NF.II
NF.XIX: 280 built
NF.30: 526 built

So, I'd say we need the XIII. As explained above, IF it had a bulldog nose, we already have it with the XVII/XIX. Or am I missing something?
With this release we now have all the bullnose Mossies that came before the NF.30.
Thimble nose is a different story. Maybe sometime in the future.

Cheers
sputnikshock

[sputnikshock]

Kopfdorfer,

I did some more research on the XIII, and the late production ones are actually quite well represented by this kitbash plane.
To be honest, the differences betweem (late) XIII, XVII and XIX are minimal.

In order to sort out the confusion and help those users who are less familiar with Mosquitos, I added a table to the first post that
shows at a glance how to represent the different variants.

Thanks again for your post and pics. I appreciate it very much and didn't want to sound rude in my reply. Sorry if I did.

[Thunda]

Hi sputnikshock- these are great, thank you.

 I dont want to split hairs (!) but the XVII was actually a converted NFII fitted with the SCR 720 radar and had the 'thimble' nose. At the time of D-Day, 5 squadrons held 78 MkXVII's between them. So MkXVII- old wing, no drop tanks and thimble nose. MkXII, again old wing, thimble nose with AI MK VIII radar (which was a huge advance over the old MkIV radar). However, by D-Day, there were only 27 MkXII's in front line squadrons (307 & 406 Sqn). Most common Mosquito night fighter at the time of D-Day was the MkXIII- 8 squadrons holding 155 a/c- which was the 'new' wing (FBVI) with drop tanks, Merlin 21 or 23's and mostly still the thimble nose (because of the MkVIII radar). The 'universal' or 'bull' nose was primarily built for the NF MkXIX, which was 'new' wing, Merlin 25's with +18lb boost and the American SCR 720 AI or British AI Mk X. The introduction of the MkXIX didnt start until March '44, and few were in service by D-Day. Those that were operated with 100 Group as bomber support / intruders with 85 & 157 sqn. They had excellent low and mid level performance and were employed during the anti V1 campaign. Some MkXIII's were retro fitted with the better radar, and therefore the 'universal' nose, so you are quite right in calling these MkXIII 'late'. There was virtually no difference in  flight performance between the XII, XIII, and the XVII- the XIX was a bit faster but not much. The main difference would be the radar, the ability to carry drop tanks and the nose.

The later NF 30 was basically a FB MkVI airframe with Merlin 72's and were more suited to high altitude.

Here are some photos of what we are talking about:

Mk XII:


Mk XIII early:


Mk XIII Late:


Mk XVII:


Edit: this information comes from, amongst other sources, 'Aircraft for the many- a detailed survey of the RAF's aircraft in June 1944' by Michael J. F. Bowyer, who I consider to be a good source. However, an internet search will bring up photographs of Mosquitos with the 'bull' nose claiming to be MkXVII's. Whilst the mark had the SCR 720 radar, its my understanding that all XVII's had the thimble nose. However, Im prepared to be proved wrong!!!

[sputnikshock]

@Thunda: Thanks for sharing your deep Mosquito knowledge.
You are however, wrong about two things.

1. As you correctly said, Mk.XVII were converted Mk.II which received the american SCR-720, known in the UK as AI Mk.X. It didn't fit into the thimble nose (which was designed for the smaller and older AI Mk.VIII), and actually was the reason for changing to a bull nose at all.
Therefore: Mk.XVII had bull noses, not thimble noses.

2. The late production run of the Mk.XIII was delivered (not retrofitted) with bullnoses, namely serial numbers HK499-HK536, and probably also MM436-MM479, MM491-MM590, MM615-623. http://www.mossie.org/production/results.php?search=XIII&returnsperpage=All&submit=Search&mode=2.

Don't let nose design confuse you about which radar was fitted. The only thing one can say for sure, there's never a AI Mk.X under a thimble nose. It doesn't fit. And as you pointed out the bullnose is called universal nose because it can accomodate both AI Mk.VIII and AI Mk.X, and it is more than likely that these were fitted by availability. Not even talking about spares, refits, repairs etc. So one can never know for sure what was hidden under a bullnose.*

*)I do think I read somewhere though, that this nose type was not yet 'universal' in the Mk.XVII, which always received AI Mk.X. Because actually there's more than shape to this and provisions (i.e. wiring etc) were not yet made to fit different radars in the XVII. However, my memory might fool me on this one, and I can't remember the source of this info. So don't take it for granted.

To sum it up (for non-hair-splitting-non-mossie-nerds): Differences apart from wing design and radar equipment were minimal. Therefore these variants can be adequately represented in-game if configured according to the table in the first post.

Cheers
sputnikshock

[Thunda]

Quite happy to be wrong about it, and I really dont want to detract from the excellent work you have produced, but Michael Bowyer is a very well read and accurate source on the Mosquito, having written the excellent 'Mosquito' (classic aircraft) with Brian Philpott and the original hard back of the same name (with the photograph above on the cover) in 1967 with C. Martin Sharp.

Ive scanned in the 'offending page', where he says that that 100 NF MkII's were selected for fitment of the SCR 720, and Marshalls Flying School converted 98 of them to what was designated the NF Mk XVII- which carried the radar in the older 'thimble' nose. These aircraft equipped 25 & 85 sqn. I think its a fairly monumental mistake for a guy in his position if, not only did they not fit the SCR 720 under the thimble nose, but it was physically impossible to do so! But hey, stranger things have happened- Im interested to know which is correct though.

Right hand page second column:



Please dont think Im 'having a go'. Im just genuinely interested from a purely nerding point of view!!!

[Kopfdorfer]

Good Info Thunda.

I'm looking forward to a few intrusions in these.



kopfdorfer

[sputnikshock]

Quite happy to be wrong about it, and I really dont want to detract from the excellent work you have produced, but Michael Bowyer is a very well read and accurate source on the Mosquito, having written the excellent 'Mosquito' (classic aircraft) with Brian Philpott and the original hard back of the same name (with the photograph above on the cover) in 1967 with C. Martin Sharp.

Ive scanned in the 'offending page', where he says that that 100 NF MkII's were selected for fitment of the SCR 720, and Marshalls Flying School converted 98 of them to what was designated the NF Mk XVII- which carried the radar in the older 'thimble' nose. These aircraft equipped 25 & 85 sqn. I think its a fairly monumental mistake for a guy in his position if, not only did they not fit the SCR 720 under the thimble nose, but it was physically impossible to do so! But hey, stranger things have happened- Im interested to know which is correct though.

Right hand page second column:

https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/img401/64/1010tl.jpg

I could not find any proof that a Mk.X would not fit in a thimble nose (magentron diameters were 28" and 29" for mk.VIII and Mk.x respectively).
Nevertheless, I think there is clearly a mistake in the book you scanned. Every other source I have ever seen claims that the NF.XVII had a
bullnose.

Just one example: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6nbDN5fUkyMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=De+Havilland+Mosquito:+An+Illustrated+History&hl=de&sa=X&ei=d_ozT7GwL8XmtQbdjsWmDA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=XVII&f=false. p.123 and p.125.

Furthermore, I have never seen a picture, drawing or model of a NF.XVII with a thimble nose. There are however many, many photographs of NF.XVIIs with bullnoses. Plus, Michael Bowyer's text implies that the XVII had thimble noses in general, not just a few early models whatsoever. I think it's a typo, meshup, the kind of mistake that inevitably happens even to the most respected researchers. Because one thing I am sure we can all agree on right away: There are far too many Mossie NF variants with far too little differences. 

[Thunda]

Hell yeah- I can live with that! I will have a rake around and see what other info I can find. On the subject of 'retro' fitting of noses, Bennett, the guy who I've been researching, was at the FIU at RAF Ford for a while, where they worked with the 'boffins' to make the radar developments servicable for squadron use. They commonly changed radar and noses on aircraft-really not a big deal as far as the nose went, so I'm sure its possible that Some Mk XIIIs were built with MkViii radar and were then upgraded along with the nose. Remember, these radar developments were straight out of the hands of the scientists, via the FIU, straight into the front-line squadrons, so upgrades happened very quickly and ad-hoc.

Anyway- great mods!!!

[sputnikshock]

OK folks, I have got something in the making here...



I think it's an AI Mk.VIII installation, however the CRT texture is from a Mk.X.
If someone happens to have cockpit pictures of a Mossie with AI Mk.X fitted (could find only one [http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/uploads/monthly_03_2010/post-2962-1269300438.jpg]   ) I'd be happy to refine the cockpit.
According to the link above, it should look like this:

[Kopfdorfer]

Check these out...








AI Mk VIII Radars
Airborne interception Radar Mk VIII
Year of issue    April 1942    

indicator73.jpg (56699 bytes)
Indicator type 73

receiver50.jpg (27789 bytes)
Receiver type 50

receiver184.jpg (39683 bytes)
Receiver type 184

scanner4.jpg (39485 bytes)
Scanner type 4
(which sure needs some restoration....).
RAF designation    ARI 5093
Frequency    3 GHz
Wavelength    9,1 cm
Main items    Tx/Rx TR 3151 or 3152
Tx unit type 3549
Rx unit type 50 / 184
Indictor unit type 73
Modulator unit type 53
Power unit type 225
Control unit type 5 & 462
Junction Box type 67
Test equipment    TS 247
Remarks    
Developed by    TRE (Telecommunications Research Establishment)
Manufactured by    Ecko & GEC

AI MK VIII Radar


AI Mk VIII Panel


AI Mk VIII Display console




Back to top of page
Airborne interception Radar Mk VIIIA
Year of issue       
RAF designation    ARI 5093A
Frequency    
Wavelength    
Main items    
Test equipment    
Remarks    Pre-production of AI Mk VIII
Developed by    
Manufactured by    

Back to top of page
Airborne interception Radar Mk VIIIB
Year of issue       
RAF designation    ARI 5588 / ARI 5645
Frequency    
Wavelength    
Main items    
Test equipment    
Remarks    ARI 5645 = AI Mk VIIIB with Lucero.
This equipment incorporates Lucero for use with 1,5 metre Beacons, BABS and IFF
Developed by    MIT
Manufactured by    WESTERN ELCTRIC/BELL LABS



Airborne interception Radar Mk X
RAF designation    ARI 5570    indicator-bc1151.jpg (12702 bytes)
Indicator

AI Mk X from unspecified Mossie NF Model


AI Mk X Control Box



controlbox-bc1150.jpg (26598 bytes)
Control box
US designation    SCR 720
Year of issue    1942 / 1943
Function    AI MkX is a modified version of the American airborne radar installation SCR-720B.It is designed to provide facilities for the interception and ranging other aircraft, beacon or homing services and also for use as a navigational aid
Wavelength    9.1cm, S-band
Pulse width    3/4 microsecond for radar
2 1/4 microsecond for beacon
Pulse recurrence frequency    1600 for radar
400 for beacon
Range scales    5, 10, 20, 100 miles
Maximum range    8-10 miles for radar
Minimum range    375 ft for radar
3/4 mile for beacon
Scanner speed    360 r.p.m. for radar
100 r.p.m. for beacon
Beam width    10 deg. approx.
Peak power    70 kW
Power supplies    24V DC aircraft supply and 80V AC from type U Alternator
Power consumption    500 watts DC, 900 watts AC
Main items    TR 3529 or TR 3530
RF unit BC 1091
Modulator BC 1142
Synchronizer BC 1148 (type C)
BC 1149
Indicator BC 1151, 1152
Control unit BC 1150
Scanner unit BC-94D
Junction box type 253
Antenna equipment RC-94-C (Aerial system 341)
Rectifier RA-90-A, RA-88-A
Inverter unit PE-218-A
Power unit PE-158
Junction box JB-98-A (power) JB-87-A
Remarks    Replaced the SCR-520.
SCR 720 is very often combined with SCR 729
   Used on Mosquito's, P-61, P-70.
Developed by    Radiation Laboratory, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Manufactured by    Made by Western Electric, but Bell Labs also  involved.

The above seems to imply that SC 720 is a component of AI Mk X Airborne Interceptino Radar.

Hope these are some use....


Kopfdorfer