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[SAS~Monty27]

They started to use the wingman system during end of BOB, learning the hard way at BOB. But the squadrons in medeterainian/ Africa I have no clue if they continued with vic a while after.

Not until Operation Flax did the RAF adopted, the finger four. Britsh stubornness until they seen Americans used it sucsessfully.

A fair interpretation Ice~Eagle.  Thankfully the same British Stubornness prevented England from being over-run in the first place, also holding the line in Malta, the Western Desert and the Far East for two years on their own until the Americans were eventually ready to join in.

[Ass Eagle]

Hello Monty27,

No not really, becouse as before Operation Torch, shooting down RAF P-40 & Hurricane was like 'picking grapes', as several Luftwaffe pilots have said. The German called these vic formation 'Idiotenreihen' (rows of idiots). Mind you during the BoB If I recall some fighter squadron did add fourth plane to the vic formation, to sweep back and forth and watch the sky. You see with 3 element vic, it was possible (and was done) that the 2 wingman were so busy trying to keep formation, 109 and such would dive from above and shoot down both w-man ( or wingman & flight leader ) at once, leaving remainder open to attack from other 109 and such. Hans-Joachim Marseille did this, I belive he shot down 11 in one day thanks in part to 'vic'.

For being stubborn, yes, they (RAF) see what happening and stick with the same old for the most part (until Flax) as they say.

My appologies for going off subject of main topic.

[SAS~Monty27]

Hello Monty27,

No not really, becouse as before Operation Torch, shooting down RAF P-40 & Hurricane was like 'picking grapes', as several Luftwaffe pilots have said. The German called these vic formation 'Idiotenreihen' (rows of idiots). Mind you during the BoB If I recall some fighter squadron did add fourth plane to the vic formation, to sweep back and forth and watch the sky. You see with 3 element vic, it was possible (and was done) that the 2 wingman were so busy trying to keep formation, 109 and such would dive from above and shoot down both w-man ( or wingman & flight leader ) at once, leaving remainder open to attack from other 109 and such. Hans-Joachim Marseille did this, I belive he shot down 11 in one day thanks in part to 'vic'.

For being stubborn, yes, they (RAF) see what happening and stick with the same old for the most part (until Flax) as they say.

My appologies for going off subject of main topic.

Thats OK - thanks mate, you are helpful, as is CWMV, because we all help to polish these campaigns up to a higher standard.  I am always learning stuff on these threads and sharing campaigns is great way to better understand some of these historic issues.

[352nd_Hoss]

I've made the request until I'm blue in the face................ to SAS, UP3, Diadalos..... we can set formation style once in the mission to any that are available in the menu................. why in the heck can't that menu be made part of the FMB so we can make a flight of Spitfire MkII's and place them in a Vic formation in FMB, add the other 3 flights of 3 and build a proper BoB formation.  To be able to do that with any plane in IL-2 in the FMB is an indispensable mission building tool.  Some flights by default will form in Eschelon Left, as will all the subsequent flights.  So now you have a squadron of 16 planes in 4 flights of Eschelon Left, when half should be in eschelon right.

I mean how difficult would it be to put this in FMB..................... really?....

keep up the good work Monty...................

I'm downloading now...............

gonna take the rest of the evening I reckon.... read the PDF...... crikey m8..................

[Ass Eagle]

Yes, and to set different altitudes for other Jagdgruppen, like me 262 flying top cover for Me109 & Fw190

Monty27,

Excellent readme by the way.

If you please, about Bodenplatte, the areas in Belgium, Holland, France, etc., was littered with allied AA & AAA, more then in any other part of Europe, much more. The reason being this was the main V1 corridor, and we know that V1's were used very late into 1944.

Important: 6 Lotse Ju 88 of II./NJG 100 attached to II./JG 53 (2), III./JG 53 (2) and IV./JG 53 (2) for guiding to target, becouse radio silence to base from Jagdgruppen and to other elements within Jagdgruppen. ALL RADIOS were off.

The weather forecast for New Year's Day predicted a low, solid cloud cover, which was the case

[SAS~Monty27]

Yes, and to set different altitudes for other Jagdgruppen, like me 262 flying top cover for Me109 & Fw190

Monty27,

Excellent readme by the way.

If you please, about Bodenplatte, the areas in Belgium, Holland, France, etc., was littered with allied AA & AAA, more then in any other part of Europe, much more. The reason being this was the main V1 corridor, and we know that V1's were used very late into 1944.

Important: 6 Lotse Ju 88 of II./NJG 100 attached to II./JG 53 (2), III./JG 53 (2) and IV./JG 53 (2) for guiding to target, becouse radio silence to base from Jagdgruppen and to other elements within Jagdgruppen. ALL RADIOS were off.

The weather forecast for New Year's Day predicted a low, solid cloud cover, which was the case

Nice details, thanks Ice~Eagle.  I will take a look at those missions specifically.

[Mick]

Another thing missing in our sim is the defensive techniques used during that period ...

I know that Lutz is currently working on a way to implement the AbwehrKreis (Defensive Circle) the Germans used for ex ...

[CWMV]

And remember that the Luftwaffev lost many aircraft to friendly fire-the AAA crews werent informed about Bodenplatte, and thus shot down many of their own aircraft!

So Monty-let me get this straight-you guys can play the Dunkirk missions without loosing effects/some frames? WTF super rig are you running!
My I7@4.5ghz/gtx580/16gb system looses prop disks/tracers when I tangle with the spits over Dunkirk.
I figured it was the old game limitations coming into effect-but if you say you run it all cranked up with gurners effects...how???!!! ???

So on the formations talk, didn't the VVS also use the vic? I mean didn't just about EVERYONE use the vic until they got slapped around by the Luftwaffe for a few years?

Monty I also noticed that you used a few wrong marks of Hurricane for the BoB. I changed the types/formation sizes in the missions if you want to take a look at them.

[Ass Eagle]

So on the formations talk, didn't the VVS also use the vic? I mean didn't just about EVERYONE use the vic until they got slapped around by the Luftwaffe for a few years?

Not to mention another Luftwaffe defensive tactic, the 'spiraling dive', in my Great Uncle Journal, he says against foes like P-47 which had tremendous dive speed, that the 109 would 'split S' and dive, then moments into dive, they would 'spiral'. The P-47 pilot so fixated on 109, the 109 would extend full flaps pull stick hard back and pull out. The P-47 obvious would see, and try same, but total weight of P-47 + speed + low altitude = plow into ground. P-47 pilot soon learn NOT to follow 109 into dive.

I try this in game, but AI always pull out much ahead before ground. I only managed to get a couple P-51 to hit ground.

[CWMV]

Takes an awfully long time to deploy full flaps in a 109! One of the things Id like to see changed in game.

[SAS~Monty27]

And remember that the Luftwaffev lost many aircraft to friendly fire-the AAA crews werent informed about Bodenplatte, and thus shot down many of their own aircraft!

So Monty-let me get this straight-you guys can play the Dunkirk missions without loosing effects/some frames? WTF super rig are you running!
My I7@4.5ghz/gtx580/16gb system looses prop disks/tracers when I tangle with the spits over Dunkirk.
I figured it was the old game limitations coming into effect-but if you say you run it all cranked up with gurners effects...how???!!! ???

So on the formations talk, didn't the VVS also use the vic? I mean didn't just about EVERYONE use the vic until they got slapped around by the Luftwaffe for a few years?

Monty I also noticed that you used a few wrong marks of Hurricane for the BoB. I changed the types/formation sizes in the missions if you want to take a look at them.

WTF super rig are you running! : - Not really a super rig but well suited to Il2 I think and gives me +60fps with everything maxxed:

Computer:      Compaq-Presario FT971AA-ABG SR5790AN
CPU:           Intel Core 2 Quad Q9400 (Yorkfield, R0)
               2666 MHz (8.00x333.3) @ 2654 MHz (8.00x331.9)
Motherboard:   FOXCONN Napa
Chipset:       nVidia nForce 7100-630i (MCP73PV)
Memory:        4096 MBytes @ 398 MHz, 6.0-5-5-17
               - 2048 MB PC6400 DDR2-SDRAM - Micron Tech. 16HTF25664AY-800E1
               - 2048 MB PC6400 DDR2-SDRAM - Micron Tech. 16HTF25664AY-800E1
Graphics:      nVidia GeForce 9600 GS [Pegatron]
               nVIDIA GeForce 9600 GS (G94), 768 MB DDR2 SDRAM
Sound:         nVIDIA MCP73 - High Definition Audio Controller

I'm not using Gurner's effects at present, got full Plutonium though and will give Gurner's a full test later.

BTW: love to take a look at mission revisions how about email? SimonRead27@Yahoo.com

[SAS~Monty27]

So on the formations talk, didn't the VVS also use the vic? I mean didn't just about EVERYONE use the vic until they got slapped around by the Luftwaffe for a few years?

Not to mention another Luftwaffe defensive tactic, the 'spiraling dive', in my Great Uncle Journal, he says against foes like P-47 which had tremendous dive speed, that the 109 would 'split S' and dive, then moments into dive, they would 'spiral'. The P-47 pilot so fixated on 109, the 109 would extend full flaps pull stick hard back and pull out. The P-47 obvious would see, and try same, but total weight of P-47 + speed + low altitude = plow into ground. P-47 pilot soon learn NOT to follow 109 into dive.

I try this in game, but AI always pull out much ahead before ground. I only managed to get a couple P-51 to hit ground.

This is a lovely detail and works in game to break enemy pursuit.  I have also been able to get AI to hit the ground and fly into trees and other obstacles, very satisfying!