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[A1_Phoenix]

so let's raise a pair of virtual pints, my good friend!



my doubt is on republican codes: CH (Caza Huracán) is not available, CM (Caza Merlin) neither.. so.. CI (Caza Inglès) maybe?

[David Prosser]

Hi, Craig. I wasn't aware such a thing as the Foriegn Enlistment Act 1870 existed. Thinking about it though, it makes sense that such legislation would exist. Any British government would be very unhappy to have a foreign power controlling the Iberian Peninsular. That's why they fought there in 1808-14. Spain in hostile hands means Britain's sea routes to India, Asia, and the Pacific are threatened. That's why they helped the Nationalists covertly. Franco's faction just wanted to win and control Spain, and rebuild it. One of their main fears would be the Republicans winning, and Stalin installing a puppet governmemt. Their next worst fear would be Franco dying, and the Nazis installing a puppet ruler. So they wouldn't openly support the Republicans. Ditto for the Nationalists, who were backed by Mussolini, and Hitler. The Neutrality Patrol didn't come into effect immediately however. A Labour government would be under a lot of pressure from it's left wing to aid the Republicans. They might conceivably have sent a pre-production Hurricane with blue prints to Spain before the arms embargo kicked in. They could also have sent some Gauntlets, or Gladiators. At any time after that, they could have sent something potentially as valuable. Intelligence information. For centuries, they'd had the best intelligence service in the world. Next, they could have manipulated their part of the 'Neutrality Patrol' to aid the Republicans. Ships could be allowed through. Lastly, they could have opened a line of credit for the Republicans. So, they'd have had more planes, men, and money. If the intelligence information had led to them winning a campaign, the war might have lasted longer. Maybe you could have them win the Vizcaya campaign, via an intelligence coup; or the one where they first used the International Brigades and T26s in large numbers. Then take it from there. So, even with restricted help, there is room to manouvre.

Even so, I'm not sure any of these measures would have allowed the Republicans to prevail. Given the factionalisim, disorganisation, and conflict on the Republican side, I think  it would have been impossible for them to win. True, the Nationalists had factions. However, they were not as divided.

cheers

David Prosser

[A1_Phoenix]

Given the factionalisim, disorganisation, and conflict on the Republican side,

that's the exact description of italy's left side parties since 25 years (sadLOL)

[DarkBlueBoy]

Hi David - fascinating stuff. I have to confess I made up Freedom of Work act, but the Foreign Enlistment is definately real. A story is more convincing if its' feet are in truth at least. As with most things however, the more I read about this, the more I learn!

It seems that Britain was faced with the lesser of two evils and the mortal fear of communism lead them to covertly support the Nationalists. It reads quite shamefully really, as they did pretty much turn the Republicans to the wolves in the hope of placating Hitler. I wonder if those decisions would have been different knowing what we know now? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Great point about the Gladiators, they of course would have been the logical choice as aircraft to send and would fit the timeframe perfectly. I wonder if I ask really nicely I might be so lucky?

I see your point about the factionism and yes, an organised fighting machine will always have a significant advantage - so maybe the final outcome would be the same - but what if the intervention of GB (and possibly France) then demonstrated to Germany that they had the stomach for war? So maybe despite losing, GB/France alliance would have positioned themselves as being unwilling to stand for German aggression on any front. Then we are opening up a whole new world.

I do think that major events could have unified the Republic factions, maybe increased strategic bombing of civilian populations in an ever increasing attempt to break their spirits like Guernica - as we know this proved to be the case when Britain was blitzed - but again maybe not enough to change the outcome.

Andrea - I like the code of CI which could have been applied to all English or it could have stood for "Internacional" perhaps and applied to all foreign detachments? Just a thought?

Very much enjoying this thread gentlemen!

[David Prosser]

Hello again. I'm surprised France, with it's Popular Front government didn't do a lot more to help Republican Spain. Partly it would have been the pacifist influence. Partly it would have been the fact that they were afraid of the Germans. Secondly, there would have been the opposition parties. Thirdly, there was the arms embargo, and 'neutrality patrol'.

So, the Freedom of work Act was just an invention. Very clever. The British were'nt as interested in placating Hitler in 1936. That whole appeasement thing didn't seriously kick in until Munich. Their main concern was that Spain not fall into hostile hands. Nationalist hands weren't regarded as hostile. Realpolitik isn't a very nice business sometimes. Finding out they have to adjust to it makes some novice politicians rather cynical and bitter. It can cause all sorts of factional problems too.

Give them a few pre-production Hurricane Mk Is. Add some Gladiators. Let them win the Vizcaya campaign, or the other one I mentioned. It could possibly have ended in a stalemate, or dragged on into 1940.  The mines Germany acquired an interest in were in the Vizcaya region. That might have had a deleterious effect on the Nazis Four Year plan.


Here's a scenario you might try. It's just about plausible. The two leftist governments in Britain and France would have got on tolerably well. Some of the senior politicians would have known each other socially. They get together and formulate a policy. They could plausibly argue that the legitimate government is entitled to import arms to defend itself. That would be pretty hard for anyone to gainsay.

Britain and France don't join the arms embargo. They sell arms to Republican Spain. The arms get sent in British and French registered ships. Anyone sinks one, and it's potential war. After all Hitler almost went to war with the Republic when they bombed the Deutschland. They let 'volunteers' join the International Brigades. They provide intelligence and money clandestinely. It might have made a difference. If the Republicans win, they sign a treaty with them guaranteeing Spain's neutrality. Ditto if the Nationalists win. Plus, as in real life the British and Americans control Spain's oil supply. That's why Franco didn't join the Nazis in WWII.

cheers

David

[DarkBlueBoy]

I like that David, it is workable without a doubt. What French aircraft (in numbers) would that have given us? I am thinking the M.S 406 and Bloch 150 maybe. Despite being inferior to the ME-109, this may have proved vital in the production of better fighting machines - which if this happened it may well have spurred on weapons development in France and Britain. In turn both nations would have been far more battle ready with a stock of experienced veterans and a collection of combat-proven aircraft and tactics.

Even more skins to ask for...

There are some rather marvellous ideas in this thread.

S!
Craig

[David Prosser]

Hello again Craig. I've just been watching Youtube snippets of Dallas 2012. The MS 406 and Bloch 152 were still in pre-production testing at that time. To complicate things, the Popular Front government in France nationalised the aircraft industry in 1936. That promptly buggered it. Production fell away dramatically. They frantically began buying American planes after Munich. There were shortages of everything. So, they would have been able to give the Republicans only a few planes. Probably D510s, GL33s, some Potez 540 bombers. More importantly, they'd have been able to give them spares, and ammunition. There'd probably been 'volunteer' pilots too. The British would probably have given them Hawker Harts/Hinds, or Vickers Vincents/Vildebeests. Add in a few by then obselete Bulldogs. Numbers in all cases would have been fairly low. But, they'd have spares and consumables. With no 'neutrality patrol', maybe the Fokker G1s the Dutch twice received payment for would have arrived. Perhaps Fokker D XXIs would have got into limited production. All that means the Germans and Italians would have had to send more planes to counter them. It might have delayed their armament efforts.

Assuming a Republican victory in the Vizcaya campaign, they'd have been able to import stuff through the Biscay ports. Spanish Destroyers were similar to their British counterparts in armament and construction. So, maybe they'd have got a couple more. Also, replacement ammo might have been easier to obtain. They had more ships than the Nationalists anyway. They'd have found more Vildebeests very useful. I'm still not sure all of this would have been enough anyway. The Republican war effort could hardly been less effective if the Keystone Cops had been running it. Of course the returning veterans from the International Brigades would have been a useful cadre in WWII.

cheers

David Prosser

[mexchiwa]

I made a Spanish Hurricane skin here:  http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads2&file=details&id=6377 (sorry, no screenies right now)

It was for a campaign I made called "Pillars of Hercules" (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3932), sort of a 1 v 1 v 1 campaign (Nationalists v Republicans v Brits) on the Crimea map.  Not based on any historical research, and for stock game, and I'm not the greatest mission builder, but it's out there if anyone is interested.

(The skins in the campaign haven't been updated from when I had to use MS Paint, so if you want the skins use the ones from the G-AMAU skinpack)

[David Prosser]

Hi, mexchiwa. I remember that campaign. I played it, and it was enjoyable.

cheers

David Prosser

[mexchiwa]

Glad you liked it.  Here are some screenshots of the skin:







The fuselage art is competely fictional.

There's also a P.11 in a similar (completely fictional) scheme here:  http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads2&file=details&id=6398

Anyway, hope y'all enjoy 'em.

[David Prosser]

Well, mexchiwa SCW has certainly come a long way since then.

cheers

David Prosser

[agracier]

Well, mexchiwa SCW has certainly come a long way since then.

I often wonder which game would have more planes: DBW 1916 or a still to be put together DBW SCW?