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[CWMV]

I suppose this question goes to standard 4.11 as well ,but do the AI still use a simplified flight model, and not the one the payer is subject to?

[thefruitbat]

from the 4.11 pdf concerning AI changes,

AI improvements
AI routines in 4.11 have been modified extensively in order to introduce several limitations
that human pilot would experience. Below is a list of things player can expect to see in 4.11:
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Various new AI maneuvers have been added. Number of maneuvers is increased by 25%.
AI planes will no longer detect enemy planes automatically inside certain radius. Position and
size of enemy plane is the main factor here. Bigger plane will obviously produce a bigger and
more visible "dot" and it will be more visible to AI.
AI skill will generally determine how well AI can spot targets. Also every gunner on board will
contribute to enemy spotting by covering their own sectors.
Generally pilots will keep looking more forwards than backwards. Occasionally fighters execute
fishtail maneuver to get better view behind. Planes will be less visible against dark background
like land, but more visible against brighter background like sky and clouds.
Clouds & land mass blocks AI's ability to see other planes behind them. For example it is
possible to evade attacking AI plane by hiding in clouds. AI planes will also try to hide in clouds
in certain conditions.
AI's own plane will block their line of sight. This is calculated from the plane's collision model.
For example basically all planes cannot see directly below them, unless the plane has
ventral/bottom gunner that can cover the underside. For example plane like Blenheim has
blind spot rear & behind since it has no tail/bottom gunner. Plane like B-17 with bottom/rear
gunners cannot be surprised from rear & behind like Blenheim (during daylight).
Occasionally fighters will execute roll maneuvers to get a look directly below them.
When fighter is pulling positive G's to get a lead shot and target goes invisible under nose, AI
will not see the target. Instead of aiming at the actual target, AI is shooting at estimated
target which position is extrapolated based on the last real observations. Much like human
brain would do.
AI pilot's ground collision detection is improved and now they will detect ground obstacles in
front of them better. Previously AI always crashed into certain kind of hill/mountain which has
too steep slope.
Environment factors such as darkness affects how well planes can be seen. AI is blind against
attack from sun and planes show up better as silhouette against moon. Planes are spotted
more easier if they emit smoke, fire, condensation trail or have lights on or are illuminated by
searchlight.
Also ships & ground AAA and aircraft gunners have the same clouds/ground/environment
restrictions as AI pilots.
AI gunners check before shooting that there is no friendly planes in front/behind their enemy
target.
AI gunners don't keep shooting while the gun is turning towards target and the target is
nowhere near when the bullets would go. So gunners will no longer waste ammo for stupid
shots.
Gunners will be less accurate shooting targets that move fast. In other words target that
forces the gunners to turn guns fast is less likely to get hit.
Gunners that experience too much positive or negative G's cannot fire at all.
AI plane's engine will overheat forcing AI to reduce throttle and open radiators.
AI planes respect diving limits of their planes.
Changes have been made in AI deflection shooting. AI calculate deflection better but it is still
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not perfect. AI's ability to chose correct deflection and to hold steady aim vary with the skill. AI
Aces shooting ability is now at human aces level and if they get into your close six you will be
in trouble.
AI flights doesn't go into attack as soon as they spot the enemy anymore. Depending on the
situation AI might try to avoid fight or try to improve their position before commencing the
attack.
AI skills are now divided internally into sub-skills and thus provide finer distribution of skill.
Aces are still better than Veterans and Averages are better than Rookies but not all AI pilots
with the same skill are the same. Some fly better, some shoot better. Some are braver and
some see better. This makes their behavior less predictable.
In addition to the maneuvers, AI fighter defense is completely reworked, no more constant
rolls. AI will perform diverse maneuvers and provide bigger challenge to the player.
AI will make mistake too. They will stall and spin occasionally, panic and “freeze” and
sometimes they will even bail out before you fire a single bullet at them.
Note
If AI planes in player’s own flight have not noticed the enemy planes, player has possibility to
“point out” the enemy presence to the friendly AI planes by padlocking enemy plane so that it
is visible at roughly center of the screen (15 deg. cone). This works even if the padlock is not
enabled. Also the commands attack all/bombers/fighters has the same function built in as the
padlock key. So issuing “attack fighters” command to your wingman would fail if your wingman
has not seen the enemy and you give the command while you don’t see the enemy. Giving the
command when you see the enemy at the center of your screen (in cockpit) gives your
wingman the direction of the enemy and wingman can attack it. This prevents abusing the
attack commands like a radar.
The AI development is a continuous process we plan to refine further for 4.12. We would like
to ask you to report any odd AI behavior we may have not noticed during our beta testing. It
was not possible for us to test all AI situations / routines.
Checks concerning clouds are not working on dedicated server. DS doesn't know anything
about clouds and was never designed to have AI planes, but we will try to change this later.

regarding fm's, they have supposed to be using the same fm since 4.xxxxx, save for landing which is scripted, but didn't have many of the environmental factors affecting them such as dive limits overheat etc....

hope that helps a bit.

[CWMV]

Indeed, I hadnt seen that thanks.

I noticed that the 109E's dont ever seem to be effected by the uneven deployment of LE slats (Emils naturally), and that started me wondering of they flew with the same FM as players.

[Semor]

I know the 4.11 readme well,and I have a strange feeling that one of the two red marked parts (AI plane's engine will overheat forcing AI to reduce throttle and open radiators) are simply not really true.
I play 4.11 since the first day it comes out,and I cant see this AI behavior in any situation.
The AI fly with more open radiators now,that´s true but I think this is more a placebo than related to a engine overheat.

In other words,if you play a mission or campaign in 4.11 that is orginal dedicated to the old 4.10 version you can see this "effect": Your own squadron mates pull away with 100% throttle like in the past and dosen´t care about their engine temrature but the player will be forced to reduced the throttle and prop pitch in a realistic way to avoid high oil and motor tempratures. This is getting really frustrating sometimes...cause you loose quickly contact to your own squad until they fade away over the horizon.

The only solution is,that the campaign builder take now much more care about the cruise speed and altitude as for 4.10 campaigns.

Seems to me that DT develop those realistic features for the human players,but in many aspects they have forget to tweak the Ai to match with the players own plane behavior.

only my 2 cent...

[crazyflak]

uneven deployment of LE slats

Lol! I've never thought this was possible... I must be going blind

cause you loose quickly contact to your own squad until they fade away over the horizon.

This (AI flying a faster/ligther clone of your plane) and the blocky/unsubtle stick movements of AI pilots really destroys any minimal sense of accuracy.

Both problems should have been a top priority in bug list since day one... and here we are 11 years later

[thefruitbat]

@ Semor, Thats your opinion, however, i don't believe you are correct in your feelings with respect.


regarding dive limitations, an easy test to do,

player p47, AI a zero behind, start at 10,000m, dive away.

pre 4.11 the zero would stay with you all the way.

in this track you can clearly see it respecting its dive limits and not being able to follow anymore in the dive ( a revelation in the pacific fighting actual being able to use historic tactics and dive away now.....)

https://www.mediafire.com/?ankx3c4r6r11iu1

(edit, see you were only querying overheat, oh well, lol.)

Regarding overheat,

I'v observed flying co-ops many times since 4.11 when chasing planes down, that they have to slow down after a while so disagree with you 100% that engine overheat doesn't affect the AI, and with respect to DGEN campaigns, I've just flown 2 missions, on the 2 hottest stock maps, Crimea (25 degrees)and Kuban (24 degrees) using the stock DGEN campaigns to see if i had any problems keeping up, and i didn't at all, one in a 109f4, one in a yak1b.

tracks here,

https://www.mediafire.com/?k103kgfr4w2sx93

I am curious to know what particular campaign you are having an issue with to see if i have the same problem.

Other than that, I would suggest if you really feel there is an issue, you would be better off posting it here,

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29040

than making accusations portrayed as fact, based purely on your feelings, at least then you will get a factual answer, and if there is indeed any issue, then hopefully some resolution.

regards fb.

[Semor]

Hi fruitbat

With respect to you,but I don´t belive I see these things only with personal feelings.

I fly strictly offline and most of the time Japanese and German Planes in DGen or DCG campaigns.

As a matter of fact there is still a issue with the AI overheat parameters. I can see this in the missions (and feel it..LOL). and of course I can handle my planes very well after hundreds of flying hours in full real settings.

A few examples: Aisia for the Asians revised

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=1295

Start a subcampaign with the KI-27 or KI-43I.After starting fly the first base leg try to climb with your squad and then go to level flight around 2000~3000 meters. NO CHANCE for the player to catch your own flight,they pull easy away.The only chance is to set full throttle and full prop pitch,
But you can hold this settings only for a few minute before the engine starts to overheat,watch at the oil temprature gauge,you will see it. there is only two options: Follow your squad mates and get a high risk to dammage your engine,or your lose contact!

Other example:

Solomon Islands DGen campaigns by Juri_JS

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,25745.0.html

..same as above!

or check this:

Ju-87B in DGen (dont know the campaign exactly, think it was of the enjoyer ones)

Same as above,but now the poor stuka´s V-max is around 250Km/h and you have prop pitch/throttle to max,the the speed gauge shows 250Km/h,your engine is near the boiling point,..and you can see your whole squadron is slowly but steady pulling away from you untill they reached the horizon like black micro dots....

I know,I´m not the only one who have this problems. and belive me,I´m NOT drunken,NOT high,and I´m NOT dreaming. (hope so)

Ok,now it`s your turn.

Peace 

[thefruitbat]

I will check later, but a quick observation, the three campaigns you've listed are all user made........

I believe you that there may be a problem with the campaigns, BUT not because the AI isn't subject to overheat.

and of course I can handle my planes very well after hundreds of flying hours in full real settings.

likewise.

[thefruitbat]

ok,

A few examples: Aisia for the Asians revised

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=1295

Start a subcampaign with the KI-27 or KI-43I.After starting fly the first base leg try to climb with your squad and then go to level flight around 2000~3000 meters. NO CHANCE for the player to catch your own flight,they pull easy away.The only chance is to set full throttle and full prop pitch,
But you can hold this settings only for a few minute before the engine starts to overheat,watch at the oil temprature gauge,you will see it. there is only two options: Follow your squad mates and get a high risk to dammage your engine,or your lose contact!

I downloaded and installed and flew a mission in a Ki 43,

track here,

https://www.mediafire.com/?kpie63hotyphcq4

Kept up with my flight leader, without overheat

[LuseKofte]

I agree and disagree with both of you. If you try out a campaign in 4.11 with a slower bomber than the campaign is meant for, you will see the AI fly away from you as they do in all previously version of the game. The changes in AI is limited, to more accurate shooting, more realistic combatmanouvers , and a so called improved AI overheating is really not working better than the old mod making AI overheat, witch improve a little bit.
I will say the change you noticed is a slightly smarter opponent during combat, witch by the way does not overheat.

[thefruitbat]

I agree and disagree with both of you. If you try out a campaign in 4.11 with a slower bomber than the campaign is meant for, you will see the AI fly away from you as they do in all previously version of the game. The changes in AI is limited, to more accurate shooting, more realistic combatmanouvers , and a so called improved AI overheating is really not working better than the old mod making AI overheat, witch improve a little bit.
I will say the change you noticed is a slightly smarter opponent during combat, witch by the way does not overheat.

until i see actual evidence to the contrary, i will respectfully disagree.

am more than happy to admit i'm wrong if it is forthcoming.

[santobr]

I was thinking on something, maybe both are right.
Maybe the AI overhead was implemented to work only in a dogfight.
Why?
Just because the cruise speed is a mission maker parameter, there is no need to calculate it all the time.
Well, I don't know for sure.



santobr.