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Author Topic: Arado Ar196T-1  (Read 74761 times)

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Jarink

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Re: Arado 196T-0 v1.0
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2010, 09:18:43 AM »

Su-10 ?? Perhaps you mean Su-2 ?

He was speaking in binary.  :D
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max_thehitman

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Re: Arado 196T-0 v1.0
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2010, 09:44:28 AM »

~
Two funky new skins for this airplane available now in the SAS SkinShop section of this forum...
I hope you enjoy them


More skins very soon!
Cheers
MAX
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Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening ! Welcome to SAS1946

beercamel

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Re: Arado 196T-0 v1.0
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2010, 10:44:43 AM »

Nice work!

I am more than enjoying this aircraft!!!

I spent 16 years as a USAF Fighter pilot..   I studied military history in-depth for many years as both a professional requirement and a personal hobby..

Just to play devil’s advocate on the military philosophy of the day.. circa 1940’s

Why have a dedicated torpedo bomber at all..  They were by definition a huge compromise that resulted in very high loses historically..  I do understand the need for a dedicated Torpedo aircraft in the very early days of naval aviation.. as the aircraft performance abilities were very limited.. It took a dedicated aircraft with a high payload to carry these weapons..  but after about 1941..  and the introduction of very high performance fighter aircraft..  the real need for a dedicated torpedo aircraft was redundant..

I am speaking about aircraft like the F6F, F4U, and the FW 190…  These aircraft could.. and were adapted to carry a torpedo.. and could effectively deliver this weapon..  but they had a very important and unique additional capability.. they were faster  and therefore had some better survivability  than a slower aircraft.. and the  ability to defend themselves against enemy air..

Consider the advantages to a US carrier commander in the later days of WW2, if the aircraft development, selection, and allocation of carrier aircraft were high performance aircraft, optimized for air superiority, were adapted to secondary roles of strike/attack/ and torpedo delivery..  .. if the threat needed Offensive Counter Air assets.. he could turn out his whole compliment of aircraft as ‘fighters’ and defend the boat..  if the threat was primary against troops in theater (Think Korea), he could allocate resources minimizing the OCA assigned aircraft and weigh his firepower toward hitting ground targets..
I argued these theories for years in the USAF at various weapons conferences..  and if you note the USN has moved in this direction  F-18’s , which my kid brother flew in the USMC, have become standard of  the ships complement..

Just thinking..
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Berserker

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Re: Arado 196T-0 v1.0
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2010, 01:17:40 PM »

I totally agree with you.

Graf Zeppelin in 1940 probably would have been a mix of aircraft (Bf-109T and Ju-87C).

But if that boat, or some other German carrier, had sailed in 1943/44, would be quite logical, it would have taken only Fw-190, a plane capable of doing all kinds of missions.

Moreover, the German carrier, had a limited capacity to transport aircraft, especially compared with American aircraft carriers, class Essex.
The Fw-190 plane was a relatively small, which perhaps would increase the ability to carry more aircraft, than transport a mix of aircrafts, some of them bigger.
Not to mention the logistics facilities.

Anyway, I think these thoughts are a bit advanced for that time, we must not forget that the American carriers, they were fighters, torpedo and dive bombers until the end of the war
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SAS~Sani

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Re: Arado 196T-0 v1.0
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2010, 01:31:27 PM »

We were discussing this plane in 1941/42 timeline...Germans were planning to put a torpedo on Ju87...we thought this would be better alternative since Arado in this configuration is outperforming Ju87 (467km/h top speed)...full discussion is in WIP section of forum.
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Berserker

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Re: Arado 196T-0 v1.0
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2010, 02:07:25 PM »

We were discussing this plane in 1941/42 timeline...Germans were planning to put a torpedo on Ju87...we thought this would be better alternative since Arado in this configuration is outperforming Ju87 (467km/h top speed)...full discussion is in WIP section of forum.

Sorry for the off topic  :-[
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SAS~Sani

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Re: Arado 196T-0 v1.0
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2010, 02:30:44 PM »

No problem :)
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caldrail

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Re: Arado 196T-0 v1.0
« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2010, 06:23:54 AM »

My first encounter with this aeroplane took place over the North Sea. From my seafire III, I saw the flight of Kriegsmarine bombers and sure enough my wingman was already anticipating a victory or two. I approached behind and below, hoping to attack by suprise, but the gunner was wide awake and alert to my presence. Worse still, he was able to shoot downward. That caught me out. As the enemy scattered we closed in. I definitely hit my target but that new German naval bomber, rather like an Arado 196 without the distinctive floats hanging beneath, proved to be a sturdy and agile opponent. To my chagrin the merlin engine was hit and began to whine, temperatures rising. Even the last volley of cannon fiore I loosed off before I had to shut the engine and ditch made little effect. My wingman got one, reporting my position. All I could do was wait to be picked up out of the freezing cold water.
Against Our Slowest Enemy (Memoirs of Lt. Caldrail)

Of course the second time I caught these aeroplanes I made better use of speed. Two of them went down, two got away, and we both flew home safely.

Incidentially, apart from the odd looking angle of the undercarriage, this mod is an excellent example of a fictitious aeroplane. It makes sense, it flies somewhere near your expectation, and I heartily approve.
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SAS~Sani

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Re: Arado 196T-0 v1.0
« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2010, 06:30:56 AM »

Hehe,I'm glad you like it :)
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Boosh

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Re: Arado 196T-0 v1.0
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2010, 04:05:46 PM »

Just wanted to make sure this got seen, it looks more correct than what the readme tells us to do, considering every static plane had the 'Explode' marker and the one we inserted didn't.

Quote from: csvousden
Just a quick question on the technics.ini data:

Shouldn't it be this?

[AR_196T0]
Description    AR_196T0
Icon           Plane
Class          air.AR_196T0
PanzerType  Car
PanzerSubtype  4
PanzerBodyFront      0.006
Explode              WagonMetal

just asking.....

C
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tater718

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Re: Arado 196T-0 v1.0
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2010, 03:31:30 AM »

This is an outstanding little plane. I don't do carriers...I don't do torpedos. But this thing is a real gas to fly!
SUPERB!!!
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caldrail

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Re: Arado 196T-0 v1.0
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2010, 03:05:21 AM »

Just to play devil’s advocate on the military philosophy of the day.. circa 1940’s

Why have a dedicated torpedo bomber at all..  They were by definition a huge compromise that resulted in very high loses historically.. 

Your question revolves around a purist point of view, in that you consider tactical and performance as the defining characteristics for aircraft procurement. Of this was always going to be important, warfare being what it is when technical development becomes a miltary advantage.

What you don't address is the politics of aircraft procurement. These aircraft weren't designed by national governments, they were thought up by designers, either as their own initiatives or to meet requirements set by the miltary planners.

In Germany, the aircraft industry was very political indeed. Witness the rivalry between established clique-member Ernst Heinkel and wannabe member Willy Messerschmitt in the race to replace the Arado 68 as the frontline fighter. This competition wasn't about whose aircraft was best - both sides spread rumours about the others products - but about whose influence in high places was superior. Both men had fighter designs and were determined to sign a contract. In fact, the establishment at one point offered Messerschmitt a place as a university lecturer to try and stop him from causing a fuss.

Secondly, as mentioned above the aircraft companies sometimes seek to meet specifications issued by the military. In this period, multi-role aeroplanes were not usually considered, although there had been exceptions, and the problems in designing aircraft capable of all-round utility and retention of sufficient performance was difficult, to say the least. In most cases, aircraft were utilisied in multiple capacities during the first half of the war by circumstance, not design, as it was noticed that some aircraft were sufficiently capable to be considered for other roles.

We must also allow for the failure of a considerable number of designs to fail to meet the demands expected of them. Having built and purchased them, these aeroplanes were on strength and simply scrapping them made little economic sense, so they would be given secondary roles or adapted for them.

With some nations, the issue of torpedo bombing was more important than others. The naval nations, such as Britain, America, and Japan would naturally see the torpedo as an important part of their air strategy, thus ensure they had aircraft capable to fulfilling that role.

The Germans, despite their pretensions, were not a great naval nation in WW2. The limited coastline and poor defense of their naval assets was one reason why U-boats were so favoured, and even they were a poor relation to the army in Hitlers eyes. In fact, since the Luftwaffe was initially considered a supportive arm to the Wehrmacht as well, the need for torpedo bombers was minor, as bombs were considered a more direct means of anti-shipping missions and note the German preference for accurate dive bombing.

Only if the two German aircraft carriers had been completed would that need increase dramatically. Since German aircraft were profiled for bomb carrying, the larger torpedo was not so easily accomodated. I don't know if the Fiesler 167 was intended to carry them, but if that was the case, the obselescence of that design would quickly have made itself felt.

Yes, I know the Fairey Swordfish persisted in British hands, biut notice that attempts were made to replace it, and only the availability of engines delivering two or three times the power at the wars end made aeroplanes like the Blackburn Firebrand a realistic viable attempt at multi-role aeroplanes in naval air warfare (despite the fact that the Kriegsmarine had pretty well been defeated by then)

Further, we have to consider the length of time required to bring new aircraft into operation. The Germans frequently had prolongued aircraft development issues, mostly related to advanced features, as they attempted to create better warplanes than the enemy. Nonetheless, the prevarication and factional disputes of the German air ministry did not help the situation. After all, plenty of capable designs were dismissed and abandoned for no other reasons such as politics alone. The fact an aeroplane might be capable is not reason enough to order. This capability must be earned - either with demonstration (such as Kurt Tanks illicit supply of Fw187's to units in Norway) or by reputation (such as the initial support for Heinkels He112).

Of course fictional aeroplanes are another matter, but I like this one because it makes sense. Adaption is easier than original design in many cases. and it assumes that the Kriegsmarine were keen to procure better carrier aircraft capable of performing the tasks that they would have needed in the light of experience rather than prewar doctrine.
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