Special Aircraft Service
The SAS Factory - Tech Help, Ancient Mods etc. => The Keepsake: Old Mod Packs, Game Versions and Guest Mods => Dark Blue World Discussion & Support => Topic started by: CWMV on January 21, 2012, 11:43:38 PM
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There, I said it. Flame on.
:P
But in all seriousness I cant get these things to fly worth a darn.
For example: -51D-20NA (W/30% fuel) V 190A8 (W/50% fuel). Over Crimea at any altitude between the deck and 30,000 feet. DBW 1.6 of course with a smattering of mods that pertain to neither aircraft at all.
The 190 climbs/fly's faster, turns better (but that was expected), dives better (wings rip off at ~500 mph in the rustang), and has a huge advantage in firepower (Over everything!).
The thing that gets me is how the AI respond to it. You know how the AI will just climb away from you if they know their aircraft is faster, but try to dive/run if they know your aircraft is superior? Well these 190 drivers have a lot of faith in their machines as they just go into the long, spiraling turn and totally leave me in the dust. The rustang can barely manage 210mph in the climb regardless of power/pitch, trim or radiator settings. I can follow, and sometimes match his speed but cannot overtake until 30,000+ feet and then it is a slow thing. At which point they just dive away and when I try to follow my wings rip off.
The part that gets me is the speed. I really, really thought the 51 was faster than this. The 47 is and the AI know it. Trying the same mission I have no trouble decimating 190's in the 47. The tactics the 190's use are different as they "know" I'll run them down in a climb like a home-sick eagle.
So what are you rustang jockeys doing to get her to fly at her true potential? I'm versed in the manipulation of prop pitch and engine management, but nothing I know to do in other aircraft works in this brick.
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hahah! lol...you most certainly would have just upset a lot of 'Stang lovers, no doubt. :D
i'm with you, though - the P51(all D models, no real issue with A/B/C's, though) is one of the fighters i've just never felt like i've been able to fly to its true potential, considering the amount of hype around this plane.
being more at home in a Hurri, 109, 190 which i can generally fly to the max and beyond, i just keep coming horribly short in a D model Mustang. always ending up second-best, which i'm not always very keen on. ;D
edit: let the conversation continue freely, but NO graphs, please - lol! let's keep it verbal... 8)
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Agreed.
I thought the title would get some quick responses...Im quite amazed!
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With the new 2.11 FM, the FW190A have more spin/Stoll, and you can win easy with the "Porked" P-51.
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Historically, I don't think that the Mustang was ever all that great as a dogfighter compared to planes such as the Spitfire. Its strengths were excellent high altitude performance and amazing range - features that seldom come into play in your typical IL2 scenario.
Furthermore, part of its combat reputation came from the fact that P-51 pilots had numbers, (relative) experience, logistics and strategic initiative on their side. It's post-war reputation came from the fact that it was flown by many pilots of the dominant world superpower and their allies and a lot of them survived on the warbird/air racing circuits.
That's not to say that the P-51 is a bad plane, by any means; but don't believe the hype. If you want a pure low-level dogfighter, go with a clipped wing Spitfire, or, for early war scenarios a A6M2.
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The fast spiral climbing, combined with frequent dives is a faulty annoying AI behaviour we can't get rid or fight, till we have AI mOds.
Certs AI and DBW AI MOD help a bit as they include or stretch the pre-sequence when those late war bastards (P-51, P-47,
Gustavs or any other ride) are spotted in my gunsight. In stock game they would immediately climb like a rocket, with these Mods they act more human, when they spotted me on their 6. Doing some maneouvering in case of trouble. But then it falls back to stock behaviour, initial fast climbs, combined with dives. The pattern is the same, always circling upwards. How annoying.
These AI Mods add nice surprise movements to the foreseeable AI movement, but at some point, AI just acts like ever and you can bet your pants. Just try to sum up where your dogfights start, then where you actually get annoyed of them from fast/unhuman climbing. Locate your alt.
The fact is this behaviour I can't recognize in our early up to some mid-war crates, curious, since it's an AI behaviour it should affect others too? There dogfights are beaten with the known forces, advantages/disadvantages, a good combination of random manoveouvers that make out exciting offline dogfights.
But I can't play late-war scenarios, this I hope will be cured in the new AI-Behavior by UP/DBW in the next patches.
I.e. early war scenarios I end up catching these bastards (choose a crate) in low, sometimes in mid-level.
You can barely end a P-51 in this alt. at least my AI doesn't do me the favour, but show me how good they climb.
You can have all advantage, but doesn't help, where in early crates fight, you get bonuses for advantages, it doesn't make any sense in late war scenarios.
As a player FM I think is alright, showing pros and cons of the crates, P-51, P-47, Gustav, Kurfürst, Spitfire, or Tempests, etc.
But as soon as AI gets seated in them, all is not worth a dime, as they all follow one particular pattern, and I can't make out the superiority of each plane they fly, it's all one pudding to me.
There's only 2 solutions for Offliners, catch them while they head on, before any specific AI -movement or disable the enemy flight in FMB, but than it's too easy. Then they are dumber than a one-day-fly.
My dream for future DBW or UP offline, play late-war dogfights in a challengable, outbalanced, depending on skills not patterns scenarios, like we can do with our early/mid crates in any combination.
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in 4.11 AI actually follow the rules of physics
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I have not had much success, either. I try not to fly it and usually prefer the p47.
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Sounds like I'm not the only one.
But come on, the A8 was a fraking tank, I've got to be doing something seriously wrong to be outclimbed by it in a 51.
Oh and I know its no dogfighter, if I want to turn and burn I grab a 109f-2.
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Furthermore, part of its combat reputation came from the fact that P-51 pilots had numbers, (relative) experience, logistics and strategic initiative on their side. It's post-war reputation came from the fact that it was flown by many pilots of the dominant world superpower and their allies and a lot of them survived on the warbird/air racing circuits.
+1 and this from a P-51 fanatic
I have gotten the Fw190 A8 to dogfight with me briefly (AI flown) by having the 190 start at an advantage. I started by shooting down the wingman while the leader 190 circles around and gets behind me then I try to out turn him (the lead 190 that's now behind me) and it's close but I can do it.
For a really fun dogfight in a P-51, try taking on any 109 from F-4 to earlier models. They will turn hard and dogfight like mad. But again, mainly at low altitude.
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strange, i really like the 51 and do well in it, often coming back with 4 plus kills in co-ops with my squad.
I'd rather be in a 51 vs 190's than a spit (although gen prefer a spit vs 109's), i find the 51 a real 190 killer.
Only planes that are a real problem are the D9 and K4 imo. If i meet them co E, its time to run away, and come back in better shape.
heights to avoid vs 190A8's is around 4000m to 6000m, and right on the deck. between 4000-6000m the A8 can outclimb the 51D, its ths worst height for fighting vs the 190A8
above 6000m, the 190 is meat on the table, 3000m also gives you good advantage. (with stock fm's anyway).
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I've flown the P-51s in all modded and stock games and while they (all versions) have gained a significant plus in the modded versions I've always been sort of dissapopinted.
The best horse for me is the P-51B or -C version. Love those and in my main "Mustang install" they also fly best with me.
I assume it is also important to consider P-51s fly best when not combatted with full fuel load, due to the Mustang-specific center of gravity.
A little off-topic, did you see that?
Mustangs a la DCS?
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3500170/
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/3500478/
Curious..
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Great topic!
A serious debate on the performance of certain planes in IL2. I'm a fan of the mustang for its design and engine Packard (Rolls Royce) and its wonderful sound. But my heart beats faster and their Spitfires by Merlin and Griffon. Their wings thin and elegant masterpiece of the English.
The vast majority of players and moders, prefer BF.
The big question is:
Technically which of the three is more maneuverable at high speeds, BF, Mustang or Spit?
NOTE: I always die in dog figth flying P-51, flying my coffin!:))
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51 isn't really a dog fighter.
A dog for certain though... :D
Looks like ill be sticking to thunderbolts. The funny thing is that online in spits v 109's and even offline I never worried about mustangs. As soon as they lose energy they are toast, easy picking for the 109.
T-bolts on the other hand...dangerous foe!
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I found this just now researching on Wikipedia, nor did I know that here so have lovers of tbm Bf109 !!:)) kkkk
http://me-109.br.sites.uol.com.br/mainp.htm
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For the Brazilian veterans who flew the P-47 in Italy he was flying Tractor kkk
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51 isn't really a dog fighter.
A dog for certain though... :D
Looks like ill be sticking to thunderbolts. The funny thing is that online in spits v 109's and even offline I never worried about mustangs. As soon as they lose energy they are toast, easy picking for the 109.
T-bolts on the other hand...dangerous foe!
Funny cos I was initially the other way around and flew the 51 for the reputation it had, the p-47 scared me and I couldn't fly it but once you get used to the jug you never go back :D
It gets interesting to compare figures with reputation, propaganda and nostalgia. I always thought that the mosquito was lacking compared to what it was trumped up to be.
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LOL @ this thread...
Keep your grubby, ham-fisted paws off of my lovely filly then, she's not for the yank and bank, herp and derp one-hit-wonder-cannonz crowd, she's a big boy's plane.
If you want to fly the P-51 right then you have to un-learn everything you've convinced yourself works in Il-2. She's a superb energy fighter, probably the best there is with a piston engine. You don't chase, you seperate. You don't turn, you Yo-Yo. You don't pull perpetual lead in every engagement thinking of nothing but the gunsight, you fall into trail and build a disparity in energy, only bringing the guns to bear when it truly counts.
The P-51 is for people who think outside the box, 5 minutes outside of it and into the future. If you don't know where you are going to be in 5 minutes time in the '51 then you're in trouble.
Soft hands are essential, you can maneuver her at 600mph quite effectively (albeit tentatively) if you practise but you can only ask so much of her at any given time. Learn to her limits and don't stray outside of them or, what seems like the slightest twitch at the wrong moment will definitely ruin your day.
She'll doesn't suffer fools to touch her, gladly or otherwise, she punishes them mercilessly.
Watch the slip-ball, stay fast and don't get caught with your pants down.
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Well I guess that's the difference.
For most pilots a fight should be over in the first pass. A 5 minute fight means you messed up somewhere.
So OK Jimmy, as they say "put up or shut up."
So if your so advanced why not post up some of your wisdom, since there aren't many that can get it to be more than a (poorly)flying gas tank.
Don't be general about it, I'm dead serious. How do you get it to climb, turn and dive with any sense of parity with enemy aircraft?
its one thing to say "the 109 is the best energy fighter in the game!" or "dont fight the RAF in the horizontal, go vertical". Its another to say "When your with FW's and you have one on your nose set RPM to 3000 and manifold pressure to 55, close radiator to +/- 5% and maintain a position on the FW's low 6 until you reach higher altitudes where you have the advantage. Dont follow them into the dive else yuo will lose your wings at +/- 500 mph..."
Just pulling something out of my rear end, but you get it.
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actually, i like Jimmy B's post - as he says, unlearn what you know works for you for other planes, and maybe it'll turn around. sounds easy, lol.
for me, i guess it's just a tad too technical to try and master...don't get me wrong, i can just about hold my own in a Mustang, and i absolutely love flying the B model. that one i can fly to the limits of its performance, somehow it's just the D's that end up with me plummeting to earth at some point, lol.
but no worries, i don't have to master every single plane in the sim. ???
i get great enjoyment out of hunting Mustangs in a 190/109, for instance..... :D
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Oh Ive got no problem with his post, its just vague.
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::)
Dude...did you miss the part where I ask how to make it perform better?
From first post:
There, I said it. Flame on.
:P
But in all seriousness I cant get these things to fly worth a darn...
So what are you rustang jockeys doing to get her to fly at her true potential? I'm versed in the manipulation of prop pitch and engine management, but nothing I know to do in other aircraft works in this brick.
Ive freely admitted that I have no experience in the rustang, and that when I do try it out its inferior hence my question here-how to get it to perform?
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...You got unfavorable results because you played your aircraft's weakness into your enemy's strength.
And this makes it sound like the aircraft is in fact inferior in performance to even a 190A8, which I just flat cant believe!
if it cant outclimb a 190, jesus, what the heck can it do?
But then again, that's why I made the post in the first place. Lots of help with the new bird thanks fellas, ::)
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Ok, here we go.
:D
The whole idea of this thread was to get pointers on the 51. I've already said I don't know anything about the aircraft or how to fly it...a few times now. Hence the thread. And obviously judging by the thread responses I'm not the only one.
This is a learning process. Don't know the answer to a question? Well go ask someone who does!
...until you get the guy trying to tell you your an imbecile for not knowing the answer in the first place.
To your questions:
"Again,if it wasn't working why did you keep doing it? This makes people wonder about the pilot instead of focusing on the aircraft."
See dude, you've got it backwards. For some reason you think I'm calling the aircraft into question. I'm not, at all. I have asked several times what I can do to make the aircraft fly to its potential.
All we've gotten is "Ya I'm with you, never got the knack of it either" and "Well jeeze stupid, learn how to fly it right!" and your wonderful contribution "Your a crap pilot, the plane is fine."
Now let me internet shout for you. Ahem...I AM A CRAP MUSTANG PILOT!!!! I AM NOT BLAMING THE AIRCRAFT INSTEAD I AM LOOKING FOR ADVICE ON HOW TO BEST IMPLEMENT THIS WEAPON SYSTEM!!!!
To that end I'd like to thank Fruitbat for giving the most technical advice thus far. You are indeed correct sir. Flying the 51 and against it, it does seem to hold its own at 3000, but not so much above or below until extreme high altitude. Weird.
"...this doesn't mean that the Mustang sucks donkey dick, as you say"
O.K. Let me explain something to you.
Now sit down...are you ready? The thread title was a joke.
I know I know, I'm sorry. But its okay.
A lot of times people will post things in jest, which they full well know are not true, in order to get a response/viewed.
That was my tactic here, in trying to gain a better understanding of the aircraft in question.
I am deeply sorry to have deceived you in such a way. My apologies to you and all else who believed, as you did, that I was serious.
And I said dingus, not d***. This would be another attempt at humor, or to at least illicit a guffaw from the reader.
As to the rest see above and repeat Ad nauseam.
I would love it though if you could come back with some real info on how to fight with the mustang.
EDIT: And just gave the B/C model a whirl.
Wow! What a bird. Seems to be easily faster in both level flight and climb. Maintained an advantage against the FW at all altitudes/positions. Totally different experience from the D.
So back to it, if you have pointers, do's or dont's on the 51 well please post them!
If you just want to pop in and say I'm flying it wrong/don't know the airplane/need to learn how to fly it, etc. Yes, you are correct. That is why I posted. Please, enlighten me.
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Oh Ive got no problem with his post, its just vague.
Maybe you should read it, carefully.
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I did, and I see the same generalities that govern most fights in the sim.
Stay fast, don't get caught with pants down...OK.
Now what are the optimal throttle/rpm settings for combat? Cruise? Climb?
Optimum speed for cruise? Climb?
What are the operating temps for the motor? How much can they be pushed and for how long?
How much fuel for X amount of range?
Max dive speed? Corner speed? etc.
You know, the vital stats.
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this thread is bound to hit a few sore spots through its title alone, nevertheless, if we can all keep it level-headed, and even a bit humourous, that'd be even better....
anyone know any good Mustang jokes? :D
better thread title would be something like: please help CWMV to fly a Mustang properly..... 8)
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by the time the mustang reached the target area the fuel was much lower, say 50-60%
also the reason the AI can fly it so well (the P-51) is that they ignore fuel weight ammo weight and that is how they always, always kick my ass
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I did, and I see the same generalities that govern most fights in the sim.
Stay fast, don't get caught with pants down...OK.
Now what are the optimal throttle/rpm settings for combat? Cruise? Climb?
Optimum speed for cruise? Climb?
What are the operating temps for the motor? How much can they be pushed and for how long?
How much fuel for X amount of range?
Max dive speed? Corner speed? etc.
You know, the vital stats.
Yeah, I'd start by looking that stuff up on google if I had a genuine interest in flying the P-51.
Alternatively, if I was an attention whore or a drama queen who'd recently run out of of ADD meds, I'd continue to spam this thread with self pity and make it as difficult as possible for anybody want to help me.
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Now let me internet shout for you. Ahem...I AM A CRAP MUSTANG PILOT!!!! I AM NOT BLAMING THE AIRCRAFT INSTEAD I AM LOOKING FOR ADVICE ON HOW TO BEST IMPLEMENT THIS WEAPON SYSTEM!!!!
O.K. Let me explain something to you.
Now sit down...are you ready? The thread title was a joke.
ROFL
;D ;D ;D :)))
Big Love! Massive laughs here.
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but in the thread title which you posted among a 100.000 american people, you said, the Mustang sucked, not yourself.
That, my friend, gets you the "medal of ballsy Postings" with Congressional Citation and a First page article on the newspapers.
Hope you survive this. Nobody has ever dared to do such a stunt on the SAS. Good luck. Bro, and Salute!
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I was going to let this topic fly, as honestly, the title made me piss myself laughing BUT like CWMV, I've never been able to fly the P-51 properly in-game despite mastering some other difficult aircraft. Actually in general I've never been a fan of the American fighters in-game (exception to P-40, which I love) and found them frustrating!
Anyway Malone has spoken and on same thoughts as me. Let's get some tips on how to fly the Pony and keep it at that :)
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pre patch 4.11 and the change in engine overheat, fly it at military power, rads closed.
you are will be very quick, and won't overheat, period.
NORMAL:
Take off: 1490HP at 3000rpm (~40"Hg)
(at 13k feet) 1590HP at 3000rpm at 61"Hg
(at 27K feet) 1370HP at 3000rpm-61"Hg
PLANE LIMITS:
Take off Max: 61" at 3000rpm
War Mergency: 67" at 3000rpm
Militray power: 61" at 3000rpm
Max continous: 46" at 2700rpm
Max Cruise: 42" at 2400rpm
OPERATING RANGE:
Manifold Pressure: 29-37"Hg
RPM: 1850-2320
MAX airspeed is 505MPH.
Shallow climb rather than in a steep angle to gain separation, also not much can maintain as a high a speed in a turn, easy to turn quick maintaining 450kph+, as long as you're not hamfisted (late 109's can stick with you though). Its zoom climb as long as you keep the wings level is awesome.
Above 6000m very little can touch it.
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I found this really an interesting Thread as I could deal with CMWV's tip in giving AI-Stangs in QMB less fuel.
I did another Trick by experimenting, as far as one of my flight AI was caught by mighty pony on six and starting noodling towards
space I just called out "rejoin formation", this way I could force the pony to my advantage, low altitude. There I made a "Mettigel" out of pony. This way I could stand a chance.
Scored 2 Stangs in a G-10, I'm happy after years of struggle, what an evolution Knoch scored or survived against the ponies.
This is the fun out of such a joke thread you can't buy for money, I can have finally fun out of IL-2's most horrifying crate.
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Here are some specifics:
You don't need to use WEP, just keep it at 95-100% power and 3000 RPM and it will have plenty of speed. All you will get for using WEP is an overheat. Leonard "Kit" Carson (18 kill Mustang Ace) said he very rarely used more than 55" MP (about 95% power)
The radiator is automatic and it will open up on you and slow you down at high power settings. Assign a key that will allow you to adjust the radiator and then close the radiator and you will go faster. At the above listed power settings you should not over heat very much. If you overheat, (usually due to hard maneuvering or steep climbing) then run your radiator selector to the Auto position again until you cool off for a bit.
Try to keep up your speed while climbing. The best rate of climb speed is 170mph, but that is way too slow. It will climb great at 200mph and you will have some energy for maneuvering if you need it.
You can dogfight with it, but be smooth. You don't need to yank until on the verge of a stall, you will find that it turns better if you let off the back pressure a bit, get out of all the stall buffeting and let it fly smoothly through the turn.
As far as the 190 being faster and climbing better at the medium altitudes, that's mainly because the P-51 supercharger is hasn't switched to high blower until you get above around 22,000 feet. Between about 10,000 feet and 22,000 feet you are in this area where the supercharger of the -51 is not at it's best performance and the 190 is in it's prime. Plus the 190 has better power to weight ratio and will accelerate better (another reason to keep your speed up) In these altitudes you will have to use lead turns (don't point directly at the guy you are chasing and expect to catch him) to close on the 190.
Above all, be smooth on the controls, if you jerk it into a turn it will be hard to get that speed back and you need it. It's your biggest advantage.
Oh yeah - again with the reduced fuel. 75% is enough, beyond that and you are not ready for combat. Another thing for success, don't just use those old 'quick combat' situations. Set up a simple bomber escort and fly 5000 feet above the bombers, then have the 190s come in at bomber altitude and you can dive down on them (A historically successful and realistic situation)
I could say more but blah blah blah. :)
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The part that gets me is the speed. I really, really thought the 51 was faster than this. The 47 is and the AI know it. Trying the same mission I have no trouble decimating 190's in the 47. The tactics the 190's use are different as they "know" I'll run them down in a climb like a home-sick eagle.
So what are you rustang jockeys doing to get her to fly at her true potential? I'm versed in the manipulation of prop pitch and engine management, but nothing I know to do in other aircraft works in this brick.
I agree with CWMV. What is also annoy me the fact that the P-47 is much better in fly than the P-51D in this game... :P
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I'm not much of a pilot, period, but here are my general pointers:
1) Practice your deflection shooting. Especially with 0.50 caliber-armed planes, you need to be able to hit with a higher percentage of your shots. You can't hope for a lucky hit with a 20mm cannon to take off your opponent's wing. Instead, you need to be able to aim a "squirt" of bullets, at least 2-3 seconds long at a vital part of your opponent's plane, like fuel tanks or the engine. You really need to aim at "center of mass" (i.e., a cross shaped area centered on your opponent's cockpit, taking in his wing roots, engine and fuel tanks).
Edit: Good shooting also means only using your guns at the range where they converge, and perhaps setting your convergence point to a shorter distance than default - say 150-300 m. This is especially important when flying a plane with wing-mounted guns (like most of the U.S. fighters).
2) Keep your speed up. Especially avoid hard climbs and turns which bleed off energy fast and can leave you as a predictable, slow target. If you get into a low-speed turn fight with a better maneuvering plane - like a Spitfire or, especially any of the better early war dogfighters (e.g., A6M2, Ki-43, B-239) you're throwing away all of your advantages. Even if you're not against a better turn-fighter, at least speed means that your opponent has to pull more lead (i.e., aim farther ahead) in order to hit you.
3) For the Mustang, fly with 50% fuel or less. While any plane is going to fly better if there's less weight in it, the Mustang is modeled so that the tank behind the pilot is emptied first. Realistically, this changes CG (center of gravity) forward, helping to make the plane more maneuverable. Unfortunately, realistic fuel management (i.e., which tank you empty first) isn't modeled in IL2, but I think that CG changes from reduced fuel are. Anyhow, the Mustang has outstanding range, so you don't have to worry about running out of fuel even if you start with less than a full tank of gas.
4) Bring some friends. Seriously. One of the reasons that the Mustang got its reputation is because there were more American pilots in the sky at any one time than German or Japanese pilots. Even if your wingmen suck, they still act as bullet magnets and distractions for the enemy. Your AI buddies may die like rats, but at least they die nobly by setting you up to make the kill. Ideally, you'll actually be able to control your wingmen, so they do something more useful than die. The "cover me", "rejoin" and "attack my target" commands are especially useful.
Another way to "bring friends" is to make other aircraft visible in the map view, although realistically you shouldn't zoom in too much. This represents other friendly planes in the area calling in reports of enemy activity and location. Americans had some the best radio and radar equipment for the period, and they made extensive use of it.
5) Fly 4.11 against Veteran or worse AI opponents. The new patch is a revolution in AI behavior. Their engines overheat, they can stall, they can be surprised, they can't see through clouds, darkness or terrain. Even better, they are actually challenging opponents, even at the lower levels of AI skill, so they don't teach you bad habits like the old AI did. At Ace level, a one-on-one fight is actually a workout for a moderately competent human pilot, and 1-vs.-many encounters against Ace AI usually result in a dead player.
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I was going to let this topic fly, as honestly, the title made me piss myself laughing...
See thats what I was going for!
Thanks all for the info! This part was particularly interesting:
"As far as the 190 being faster and climbing better at the medium altitudes, that's mainly because the P-51 supercharger is hasn't switched to high blower until you get above around 22,000 feet."
That makes a lot of sense.
I'm playing a campaign right now, legend of Y29, covering Bodenplatte from the allied perspective. Very little high altitude action thus far but the mission requirements keep me at medium to low altitudes so I rarely meet the enemy with an advantage. Almost always meet them in equal position or at a disadvantage.
Sadly I haven't, and probably wont play with 4.11 until its brought into the DBW scene.
The AI sounds great, but the AI mod in DBW is pretty good. Add to that just how much prettier DBW is and I just cant go with anything else! :D
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I'm playing a campaign right now, legend of Y29, covering Bodenplatte from the allied perspective. Very little high altitude action thus far but the mission requirements keep me at medium to low altitudes so I rarely meet the enemy with an advantage. Almost always meet them in equal position or at a disadvantage.
Bodenplatte was an unusual situation, in that the Germans threw every fighter they had against the Western Allies in low- to medium-level strikes, in order to gain tactical surprise and temporary air superiority. Legend of Y29 is a great campaign, but it doesn't show the Mustang to best effect.
Also, while it's been a while since I played the campaign, check to see if the Mustang fuel levels are too high (i.e., above 50-75%) and if German AI skill is set too high (i.e., Veteran or Ace). Many, if not most, German pilots involved in Bodenplatte were rookies, or pilots used to flying other types of planes who were transferred to fighter ops with little to no conversion training.
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You know the interesting thing, I'd much rather fight the -190 in the Mustang than the -109. But that is just my personal preference :)
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Honestly, I never take more than 30% fuel.
Don't think ill need the long legs in this campaign.
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I was going to let this topic fly, as honestly, the title made me piss myself laughing...
how much prettier DBW is and I just cant go with anything else! :D
Well what do you mean with prettier ? Maps, objects, etc ? If it's that then you can have all of it in 4.11, except the planes. Just read a bit in the 4.11 mods topics ;) And yes, I also recommend you to try the AI :D
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I was going to let this topic fly, as honestly, the title made me piss myself laughing...
how much prettier DBW is and I just cant go with anything else! :D
Well what do you mean with prettier ? Maps, objects, etc ? If it's that then you can have all of it in 4.11, except the planes. Just read a bit in the 4.11 mods topics ;) And yes, I also recommend you to try the AI :D
And there's the rub! :D
See, I wouldn't call myself a 109 fan-boy. Its just not strong enough for the adoration I feel for this truely perfect airial combat aircraft. ;)
That being said I can't...nay I wont use any derivative of IL2 that does not include the 109 ultimate pack.
Just what works for me.
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indeed.
badderger, no-one in this thread has crossed the line into personal insults, which is one of our forum rules.
no-one was insulting veterans here. CWMV is a long-standing and respected member here, granted his choice of words could 've been better, but he is obviously referring to himself and his inability to fly the Mustang in this sim - no-one is attacking the real P-51 or the guys who flew it. here, we are referring to a game, and not the real thing. don't confuse the two.
be warned - cease and desist, and let's keep it to giving advice where needed.
leave the personal insults at the door when you check into the forums, please.
and now, on a lighter note, i simply couldn't resist this.....
(https://storebror.it.cx/sas/archive/sas2/Malone/PICS/screens/bfddlol.jpg)
;D
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Thread cleaned by me
Also, just on point of order:
I was going to let this topic fly, as honestly, the title made me piss myself laughing...
how much prettier DBW is and I just cant go with anything else! :D
Well what do you mean with prettier ? Maps, objects, etc ? If it's that then you can have all of it in 4.11, except the planes. Just read a bit in the 4.11 mods topics ;) And yes, I also recommend you to try the AI :D
In DBW everything is redone. Insides of cockpits, even the POV's, reticles, intruments, at least of most planes, as well as their outside 3d is updated, as well as textures, objects, weather, like you said the maps, all effects are adressed, all sounds. Layouts, GUI's, evrything from point A to point Z has received some attention. Stock and DBW are realy two completely different animals. I think when we bring the two together in DBW 1.8 that it wil be VERY pretty indeed :)
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Alright Malone I can go with that. But I still think it is inappropriate and unneccessary.
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that's cool, buddy.
it may be a tad inappropriate, but i think we all should just take this with the pinch of salt that it should come with.
by all means, say your say, but do so without getting personal.
having been on most IL2 forums since 1994, i know full well how this kind of thread can degenerate into abuse. as long as no-one takes it to personally, and in the light it was meant to be portrayed, we can all have say our say without attacking anyone else.
i know i suck at flying Mustangs properly, but i would never blame the plane....
that's the only drawback of the OP's title, other than that, you've gotta admit, it certainly drew attention, and a few laughs from us mere mortals. 8)
now, more advice for CWMV (and me!) would be much more welcomed than telling them off.
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In DBW everything is redone. Insides of cockpits, even the POV's, reticles, intruments, at least of most planes, as well as their outside 3d is updated, as well as textures, objects, weather, like you said the maps, all effects are adressed, all sounds.
Well yeah, infact I talked about cockpit repaints, sounds and outside 3d remake too, just didn't list them to keep it short. Let's say...I have DBW visually (if you count sounds and objects in that too) in 4.11. Say all the sfs files except new planes.
And I agree CWMV I miss them :D That's why now I'm back to 4101 and DBW after having tried the new 4.11 features enough.
I was only unsure what you meant with prettier, some say maps, some say sounds, some say effects etc...and you say planes ;D
And you wouldn't even try it ?
I think when we bring the two together in DBW 1.8 that it wil be VERY pretty indeed :)
Big big big grin :D :D :D :D :D :D
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*
Thread cleaned by me
Also, just on point of order:
I was going to let this topic fly, as honestly, the title made me piss myself laughing...
how much prettier DBW is and I just cant go with anything else! :D
Well what do you mean with prettier ? Maps, objects, etc ? If it's that then you can have all of it in 4.11, except the planes. Just read a bit in the 4.11 mods topics ;) And yes, I also recommend you to try the AI :D
In DBW everything is redone. Insides of cockpits, even the POV's, reticles, intruments, at least of most planes, as well as their outside 3d is updated, as well as textures, objects, weather, like you said the maps, all effects are adressed, all sounds. Layouts, GUI's, evrything from point A to point Z has received some attention. Stock and DBW are realy two completely different animals. I think when we bring the two together in DBW 1.8 that it wil be VERY pretty indeed :)
Drool... 8)
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(https://storebror.it.cx/sas/archive/sas2/Malone/PICS/screens/bfddlol.jpg)
;D
Oh my lord!
;D
Guess from now on when I fly an allied aircraft ill have to modify the skin. They will all be "The dingus" from now on!
Does anyone have links to good P-51 campaigns that are DBW compatible? Bodenplatte is just, well, not doing me any favors...
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I'm new here but already have some experience with jet fighter simulators and other simulators. I had great fun reading you guys, and really enjoy reading debates relaxed. If someone is upset with the sarcastic answers I think is lacking in a good mood!
Before anyone gets mad, that below is a joke:))
1 - The propeller is just a fan in front of the plane
to keep the pilot cool. Want proof? When she stops,
the pilot immediately begins to melt away the sweat.
2 - Remember where you pilot your head and not your hands.
3 - Try to keep the number of landings equal to the number of takeoffs.
4 - Everyone knows what the definition of a good landing: it is when you can
walk away from it. But few people know the definition of a great landing:
is when, in addition, you can use the plane again.
5 - If you face an emergency landing at night,
turn on the headlights to see the landing area. If you do not like
what you see, turn off the headlights.
6 - A pilot is a confused soul who talks about women when
flying and about flying when he is with women.
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http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_VlIyEw4xNCM/Sj0ujZfoM7I/AAAAAAAAAFw/e_WQV-klXoc/s1600/Pirulito+Piroc%C3%B3ptero+-+La.jpg
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OH crap !!!! Do you want to warn me before i have a mouth full of food ..... That was seriously funny ;D
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Does anyone have links to good P-51 campaigns that are DBW compatible? Bodenplatte is just, well, not doing me any favors...
I'm just puting the finishing touches on a historic P-51 fighter escort style campaign that I call "The Yoxford Boys"
I plan to release it here and at M4T within a couple of weeks. It's made specifically for DBW and UP3 instals. All the missions will be based on actual missions flown by the 357th fighter group. I hope you will like it.
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Looking forward to it 8)
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Desert Air Force Pt4; Mustangs Over Italy
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=2476
The legend of Y-29
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=1643
The Tokyo Pony Club
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3624
Modded:
The legend of Y-29 (MOD)
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=688
The Day Of The COBRA
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=26
Speedball Alice
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=956
Little Friend
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=931
Compatibillity with DBW? Dunno just try...
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I love the donkey dingsda ;D
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo230/Thorongil69/Tom/grab0002-9.jpg)
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo230/Thorongil69/Tom/grab0004-13.jpg)
After CWMV started his thread :D, I actually got deeper in training my Stang skills. Still poor at it, but this is a superb plane. But I have to say the BF-109 e.g. - at least those I flew lately- are a more stable gun platform.
I think the P-51s are naturally unstable per design-and in present time fighter layouts-unstability is one mandatory factor for excellent manuoeuvrability. (With FBW lol).
I think the P-51 was very advanced.. ;)
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Yeah, I have the same feelings about the Mustang in general. Very tricky to fly (especially at low speeds) and not all that manueverable. However, the A model is a joy to fly! On all variants, combat flaps will help quite a bit during low speed maneuvers, so make sure to use them. On the Allied side, I prefer any of the late model Spitfires and/or the La-7.
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CWMV---I do not believe that you mean any harm by this thread, nor to trash any vets or traditions.
This thread has an air of humor to it. The caricatures are funny. The post by Fly is hilarious.
You all might think the Mustang is my favorite plane but actually it is not. I enjoy flying it but the bird has its limitations. You wont win the war with it. It shares one flaw with the FW 190 in that it has a tendency to "over-bank"---that is, if you bank too sharply the plane will turn over on you and take a bad dive. I f this happens at low altitudes you might actually crash. The Wulf does this also but to a lesser degree. Another one is one of my top favorites, the Dornier 335. This being possibly due to the large wing area neccessitated by its heavy weight with two motors. I like the 109G-series in 1942-3 missions, but I consider this plane in it's peak of dominance in this era.
Being one of the lightest planes in IL-2, the Mustang gets blown around and pushed around very easily. Although a good climber and a good diver, its really not close to the best, and relys heavily on favorable enviornmental conditions. But if the elements are just right, the 'stang will often surprise me with sharp, darting banks. In these conditions she can be hard to pin down and can often "turn the six".
But the Mustang falls far short from the best and so do many, many planes. She seems to be slightly above average in nearly all categories, but falling short of a true grade-A fighter. But the Mustang is interesting and fun and adds depth and variety to our great love>>>IL-2...
Peace...
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The only good Mustang is a burning mustang.
This mustang has fire on it's wings. Oh, is that a 109 up in the corner?
(http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/steve51b/olcrw.jpg)
Ouch! that's gotta hurt ! ;)
(http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/steve51b/olcrw2.jpg)
;) BTW, I love 109s, awesome airplane. I just couldn't resist. :)
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8)
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Let me ask y'all this. I have noticed that the wing tanks empty before the fuselage tank. My understanding is that in reality , the fuselage tank would be emptied first during flight to balance out the CG. So , are some of the issues that we Pony lovers have handling her due to this , especially in the D's? Just thinking out loud. Previous posters have pointed out one thing correctly - she is like a thoroughbred race horse - if you drive her with a heavy hand then her full potential will be thwarted. Like .38 Special once said , "Hold on loosely , but don't let go!" Time for some Jack!
Ribs
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Let me ask y'all this. I have noticed that the wing tanks empty before the fuselage tank. My understanding is that in reality , the fuselage tank would be emptied first during flight to balance out the CG. So , are some of the issues that we Pony lovers have handling her due to this , especially in the D's? Just thinking out loud.
Fortunately, the only thing that is not modeled correctly is the fuel tank gauge readings. So, if you have less than about 80% fuel your CG will be just fine even though the gauges show otherwise. It's a minor thing, but I've always found it annoying. As I once pointed out here: https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,18252.msg196024.html#msg196024
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(https://www.sas1946.rocks/images/imageshit/img840/7200/aceofassesp51.jpg)
Sorry, couldn't resist. ;) Mustang nice plane. ;D
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Let me ask y'all this. I have noticed that the wing tanks empty before the fuselage tank. My understanding is that in reality , the fuselage tank would be emptied first during flight to balance out the CG. So , are some of the issues that we Pony lovers have handling her due to this , especially in the D's? Just thinking out loud. Previous posters have pointed out one thing correctly - she is like a thoroughbred race horse - if you drive her with a heavy hand then her full potential will be thwarted. Like .38 Special once said , "Hold on loosely , but don't let go!" Time for some Jack!
Ribs
drop tanks are designed to keep the main tank full. fuel from drop tank feeds main tank which feeds the engine. Main tank always feeds engine. drop tanks empty first ;)
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All kidding aside, the heavies (b-17s/24s) were the biggest threat to the 109 in 1944. When Göring gave 109 fighter gruppen to 'ignore the fighters and only go for bombers' that sealed there fate.
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All kidding aside, the heavies (b-17s/24s) were the biggest threat to the 109 in 1944. When Göring gave 109 fighter gruppen to 'ignore the fighters and only go for bombers' that sealed there fate.
I agree with that. Probably more 109s were lost to fighters rather than bomber gunners, however, the requirement to concentrate on bombers made them much more vulnerable to fighters. When reading the Caldwell books about JG26 it is clear that when they had the occasion to take on allied fighters on fairly equal terms they (JG26) did very well.
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Just out of curiosity, and not like we need another variant of an already well represented aircraft, but why hasnt anyone made a 51K? Not enough difference between the two to justify the work?
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AFAIK No one has done it. Probably because - like you said - Not enough difference between the two to justify the work.
I think the FM differences would be so subtle that it would be a waste of time. The only thing would be to make a different looking propeller.
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A P-51H (or XP-51J ;D) would be cool.. :P :D+
According to the article presented by Gerax, this version also had better handling characteristica, a.o. thanks to the larger tailplane. It was also very fast "The P-51H was one of the fastest piston fighters ever to reach full operational service, with a level speed of 784 KPH (487 MPH)"
:D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_variants
P-51H
A P-51H-10-NA showing the longer, slightly deeper fuselage and the lightweight undercarriage with smaller wheels. A taller tailfin was later adopted by the P-51H series.
The P-51H (NA-126) was the final production Mustang, embodying the experience gained in the development of the XP-51F and XP-51G aircraft. This aircraft, with minor differences as the NA-129, came too late to participate in World War II, but it brought the development of the Mustang to a peak as one of the fastest production piston-engine fighters to see service.
The P-51H used the new V-1650-9 engine, a version of the Merlin that included Simmons automatic supercharger boost control with water injection, allowing War Emergency Power as high as 2,218 hp (1,500 kW). Differences between the P-51D included lengthening the fuselage and increasing the height of the tailfin, which greatly reduced the tendency to yaw. The canopy resembled the P-51D style, over a raised pilot's position. Service access to the guns and ammunition was also improved. With the new airframe several hundred pounds lighter, the extra power and a more streamlined radiator, the P-51H was among the fastest propeller fighters ever, able to reach 487 mph (784 km/h or Mach 0.74) at 25,000 ft (7,600 m).
The P-51H was designed to complement the P-47N as the primary aircraft for the invasion of Japan, with 2,000 ordered to be manufactured at Inglewood. Production was just ramping up with 555 delivered when the war ended.
Additional orders, already on the books, were canceled. With the cutback in production, the variants of the P-51H with different versions of the Merlin engine were produced in either limited numbers or terminated. These included the P-51L, similar to the P-51H but utilizing the 2,270 hp (1,690 kW) V-1650-11 engine, which was never built; and its Dallas-built version, the P-51M, or NA-124, which utilized the V-1650-9A engine lacking water injection and therefore rated for lower maximum power, of which one was built out of the original 1629 ordered, serial number 45-11743.
Although some P-51Hs were issued to operational units, none saw combat in World War II, and in postwar service, most were issued to reserve units. One aircraft was provided to the RAF for testing and evaluation. Serial number 44-64192 was designated BuNo 09064 and used by the U.S. Navy to test transonic airfoil designs and then returned to the Air National Guard in 1952. The P-51H was not used for combat in the Korean War despite its improved handling characteristics, since the P-51D was available in much larger numbers and was a proven commodity.
Many of the aerodynamic advances of the P-51 (including the laminar flow wing) were carried over to North American's next generation of jet-powered fighters, the Navy FJ Fury and Air Force F-86 Sabre. The wings, empennage and canopy of the first straight-winged variant of the Fury (the FJ-1) and the unbuilt preliminary prototypes of the P-86/F-86 strongly resembled those of the Mustang before the aircraft were modified with swept-wing designs.
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Here's what's possible with the donkey dingus:
First, while doing one of the missions from my upcoming "Yoxford Boys" campaign, I got myself in some deep shit. ??? That's a 109G-14. I was shooting at his wingman and he got really mad at me.
(http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/steve51b/defensivespiral1.jpg)
Then, at the right moment, and while using combat flaps, I started a "Defensive spiral" outlined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#Defensive_spiral
Here is the Defensive spiral in progress. Note that the ntrk does not show the 109s leading edge slats were fully extended at this time.
(http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/steve51b/defensivespiral2.jpg)
He overshot me vertically and started to run away. I caught him from behind and eventually ended up here:
(http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv200/steve51b/defensivespiral3.jpg)
Big time adventure and really got the old adrenaline pumping :) (sound of dog panting here)
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Good job turning the six.
You made one mistake, though. You got dingus juice in his eye. Next time go for the chin!
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Here's what's possible with the donkey dingus:
First, while doing one of the missions from my upcoming "Yoxford Boys" campaign, I got myself in some deep shit. ??? That's a 109G-14. I was shooting at his wingman and he got really mad at me.
Then, at the right moment, and while using combat flaps, I started a "Defensive spiral" outlined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#Defensive_spiral
Here is the Defensive spiral in progress. Note that the ntrk does not show the 109s leading edge slats were fully extended at this time.
He overshot me vertically and started to run away. I caught him from behind and eventually ended up here:
Big time adventure and really got the old adrenaline pumping :) (sound of dog panting here)
Would it be possible to let us d/l the ntrk file, please ,
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OK, I haven't set up a d/l in a long time so here goes.
https://www.mediafire.com/?tqhms5m866ysggm
That should be the .ntrk
It starts while I'm chasing the wingman for more shooting opportunities and I notice another 109 coming in fast.
To my embarrassment, :-[ I noticed that I "cleared my tail" a couple times for a half second or so by switching to fly by view.
Anyhoo, by the time I start shooting at this guy I'm so worked up that I can hardly hold the stick steady and my shooting suffers. But he does bail out eventually.
Enjoy. :)
Edit: BTW, you've got to use something like Trakir to raise your POV way up in the seat and forward, otherwise you'll lose sight of the guy when he is close in at 6 o'clock.
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Whats the deal with this new campaign? Sounds interesting!
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Thanks, Stratodog.
Nice video.
As for P-51D, I think, that all the hint is, not to fall into the spin, that is, not to loose your speed. Similarly as in P-39, for the same reason : center of gravity too back.
P-51 is better in that it is better to save from the spin.
I prefer La-5FN or La-7, btw.
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I agree with CWMV. What is also annoy me the fact that the P-47 is much better in fly than the P-51D in this game... :P
It's hard to make something out of nothing in the '47 though. She runs out of tricks pretty fast if you don't have the advantage and then she flounders around like a whale in a wading pool once you run out.
It can be done but not by many people, only a special few ;)
The P-51, on the other hand, doesn't have the same response from it's engine in terms of torque or horsepower but it does have two other advantages which rely upon your ability to keep the slip ball centered. In the P-51 you get the advantage of a better thrust to weight ratio as well as a much cleaner aerodynamic profile but neither of these mean jack-shit unless you're flying trimmed and coordinated. If you're out of trim the P-51 is about as aerodynamic as a furniture van, just look at the cross section of the fuselage.
Make the most of the aerodynamics of it by flying cleaner than you do in other aircraft.
What all this boils down to is that, so far as single-player Il-2 goes, CWMV is right. The P-51 sucks a big floppy donkey dingus.
Not because it's a bad plane but because the AI cheat.
You are flying it against IDEAL versions of aircraft that were plagued by various technical problems and other shortcomings in real life.
Your opponents don't have crap fuel, poorly manufactured engines or faulty, over-complicated and often sabotaged weapons systems. (Slave labour is bad m'kay)
Your opponents are not sane, rational people who fly like they don't want to be killed, they are fanatical, super-nazi-banzai cyborgs and you can't win against the cyborg flown 109 or 190 in a pitched battle with the P-51. You're John Connors in that Terminator world and, anything like the kind of fight that we all usually want to have in Il-2 is taboo in the P-51 against the AI.
(I mean a quick, fun fight and not a long, boring game of cat and mouse.)
So, for the offliner, the golden rule of P-51 is:
"One pass, haul ass."
Use guerrilla tactics, cyborg bitches don't know 'bout my Che Guevara handbook.
If you deny the enemy the chance to be effective (say by driving him away from your bombers and forcing him to sacrifice height to escape) then you've done your job until he comes back. Don't chase him, let him sniff around and try again and, when he does, have another go at him. Only get stuck in when you hold all the cards, if you don't hold all the cards then fold, you can't bluff a cyborg.
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Whats the deal with this new campaign? Sounds interesting!
I'm putting the finishing touches on it right now. I'm a little bogged down with work, both on the job and at home, but I have some time in the evenings to polish a few things. I should be able to release it within a few days. stand by...
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Your opponents are not sane, rational people who fly like they don't want to be killed, they are fanatical, super-nazi-banzai cyborgs and you can't win against the cyborg flown 109 or 190 in a pitched battle with the P-51. You're John Connors in that Terminator world and, anything like the kind of fight that we all usually want to have in Il-2 is taboo in the P-51 against the AI.
Sorry, but this is one of the most unlucky (I am trying to be friendly) excuses I ever heard about the performance of P-51, and I heard many over the years, starting with the now legendary "P-51 is porked period" topics of Ubisoft forum....
Fighter pilots were taught to be agressive. They HAD to be agressive in order to survive. This agression often saved their lifes, even if many times was not enough...The lack of agression was the sure way to be shot down. Aces like George Berling or Ralph 'kidd' Hofer it seems like they had agression as their biggest advantage in combat. As Thomas McGuire said it "be agressive to do your job". An agressive pilot, even as a rookie, is always a threat to the enemy.
The same applies for luftwaffe pilots too. German pilots were taught to be agressive. Please look at the memoirs of Pierre Clostermann - and re-think what you wrote. His testimony about air fighting above Germany in early 1945 is a "must read" for everyone that is interested in military history and his description of these clearly novice but very agressive (and dangerous) Fw 190 pilots is breathtaking.
Of course, aggression could never be enough by itself, but - THAT IS THE KEY- is the plane itself that helps you to be more or less aggressive. And the truth is, while the 109s and 190s push you being aggressive as much as you can (in a very different way each, but still aggressive), the P-51 doesn't. You have to act "flying first, fighting second".
Now from the historical reality to the IL-2 virtual reality: The comparisons with the Spitfire are so unfortunate for P-51 - especially if you try the excellent H.F. VIII - , I am thinking of a plane with the same engine. But that's why you seldom read, if not at all, instructions about how to fly spitfires, and the same applies for 109s. And I read instructions about 'how' you should 'fly' P-51s many times. And in this topic too. Essentially, instructions how to avoid to get shot down. But if ever someone would do the same for a spitfire or a 109, he would instruct people how be to ...a(s)erial killers. Focusing purely in tactics. But very rarely we would hear about it. Every great IL-2 pilot has its own tricks and most are unwilling to share...
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Fighter pilots were taught to be agressive. They HAD to be agressive in order to survive. This agression often saved their lifes, even if many times was not enough...The lack of agression was the sure way to be shot down. Aces like George Berling or Ralph 'kidd' Hofer it seems like they had agression as their biggest advantage in combat. As Thomas McGuire said it "be agressive to do your job". An agressive pilot, even as a rookie, is always a threat to the enemy.
Yes, thankyou for being condescending enough to point out the perfectly obvious whilst missing the basic reality that, in Il-2, every engagement with AI planes is a slug-fest to the utter destruction of one side or the other.
I never said don't be aggressive, only that the AI are suicidally aggressive. Do you see the difference between human aggression tempered with discretion and mindless robotic aggression?
Anyway, if you are right then everything in history is a lie, all the pilots in WW2 died in the first week because every engagement resulted in one side pursuing the other until it was utterly annihilated...
In the real world being aggressive is scary, people have respect for aggression and use caution.
In Il-2 world being aggressive just means that the AI target you.
In Clostermann's book the Luftwaffe didn't mindlessly attack him until they were destroyed, they didn't follow him all the way over the channel and try to strafe his parked aircraft until the AAA shot them down.
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No, he has a point.
We all know that the AI has some pretty severe advantages in game (not sure if resolved to a point in DBW...?).
But then flip it around. Take a 190 against a 51 and see how easy it is to make mince meat from them.
Regardless, lets try to keep it nice here. Remember this thread was started in a very tongue in cheek fashion!
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But then flip it around. Take a 190 against a 51 and see how easy it is to make mince meat from them.
I agree...even against an ace Mustang he doesn't get past me alive (head on)
and everyone knows that I'm a very very bad pilot :D and flying on keyboard currently...
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Oh Im a god-awful 190 pilot.
Im serious. Really really bad.
Im really only any good in 109's and P-40's. Go figure the only aircraft in game Ive flown in 10 years...
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lol I am awful in every plane ^^ but I like the Butcher bird and fly it ok (in comparison to other planes like a certain donkey dingus ::))
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... donkey dingus ::))
That still cracks me up!
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You are flying it against IDEAL versions of aircraft that were plagued by various technical problems and other shortcomings in real life.
Your opponents don't have crap fuel, poorly manufactured engines or faulty, over-complicated and often sabotaged weapons systems. (Slave labour is bad m'kay)
Your opponents are not sane, rational people who fly like they don't want to be killed, they are fanatical, super-nazi-banzai cyborgs and you can't win against the cyborg flown 109 or 190 in a pitched battle with the P-51. You're John Connors in that Terminator world and, anything like the kind of fight that we all usually want to have in Il-2 is taboo in the P-51 against the AI.
Use guerrilla tactics, cyborg bitches don't know 'bout my Che Guevara handbook.
If you deny the enemy the chance to be effective (say by driving him away from your bombers and forcing him to sacrifice height to escape) then you've done your job until he comes back. Don't chase him, let him sniff around and try again and, when he does, have another go at him. Only get stuck in when you hold all the cards, if you don't hold all the cards then fold, you can't bluff a cyborg.
-player has "ideal/perfect" planes too. no gun jams, no misc mech problems... purring Allisons and Merlins...
-defnitely got a point about them "AI bitches" and "nazi banzai cyborgs", --> +1 for comment style. :)
--> AI of 4.11 any more real?
also good question about the PURPOSE of the plane, in context with the mission design. escortt or fighterbomber, "bodenplatte" style or "bodyguard" for the heavies?
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Oh Im a god-awful 190 pilot.
Im serious. Really really bad.
Im really only any good in 109's and P-40's. Go figure the only aircraft in game Ive flown in 10 years...
i sat in 109F/G2s and spitpests mostly last year. after the 2 months break, i took up service with the Darwin defenders, P-40E, and am feeling very much at home in that crate. go figure.
(xcept the firepower... this "shotgun" style gun setup needs training. wheres my Hispanos and my 151/20s!!)
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No, he has a point.
We all know that the AI has some pretty severe advantages in game (not sure if resolved to a point in DBW...?).
But then flip it around. Take a 190 against a 51 and see how easy it is to make mince meat from them.
Regardless, lets try to keep it nice here. Remember this thread was started in a very tongue in cheek fashion!
This is true and why I'm excited about what might come with the AI as they are now in 4.11. Maybe there will be less dingus being sucked all round. I'm practically peeing my pants to see what happens with this DBW and UP when they are using it!
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I never said don't be aggressive, only that the AI are suicidally aggressive. Do you see the difference between human aggression tempered with discretion and mindless robotic aggression?
Anyway, if you are right then everything in history is a lie, all the pilots in WW2 died in the first week because every engagement resulted in one side pursuing the other until it was utterly annihilated...
In the real world being aggressive is scary, people have respect for aggression and use caution.
I never said that the AI is 100% realistic. In fact, even with AI mod, even with the much praised 4.11 AI, there is a lot of improvement. The AI agression is indeed robotic but why is human agression more discrete? Would ever the AI engage a P-38 against a Ki-43 in a low altitude dogfight with their drop tanks still in?
People are more unpredictable that the AI and would act sometimes stupidly, not only if their are scared, but because their adrenaline is too high. Sure, in some occasions AI should act differently, eg. when a big formation is cracked in 2-ship elements and some of them are getting shot down, the AI would have as first priority to re-unite single planes into new pairs than make them attack the enemy (Check this, this is one of the primary reasons for being "utterly annihilated"). But it's not that way AI acts in a way that disadvantages especially the P-51. The AI fails regurarly to get out the 100% of the maneuverability of each plane.(it's something that needs too much fantasy for the capabilities of the AI...) Planes that their strong point is exactly that are the true losers from the AI behaviour.
And yes, many pilots died in their first week of combat, actually in their first mission. Fear and panic had a lot to do with that. It was quite usual to got in panic after their lost from their eyes their leader or after they took hits (but not enough to bring them down). Pilots that had performed well during training thet would be totally scared during battles. A loss of a good mate would shock them enough too to follow him in the other world, either because they would be paralysed (even an spontaneous 30 second cry is a century for an air battle) or because their would try in anger to revenge at any cost - a classic battle stress sydrom, unusual, but it happened. . Sure, these factors are missing from the AI. But is its own way to make up a bit from its lack of fantasy, don't you think?
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why is human agression more discrete?
-->because we care about our virtual a$$ :)
Would ever the AI engage a P-38 against a Ki-43 in a low altitude dogfight with their drop tanks still in?
--> they do... or is there different code for
a)P-38 vs Ki43,
b)P-38 vs 190D
c)P-38 vs He-111/Ju88/Do17.217
d)...
one would need to code and implement various AI routines for different situations. But thet is AI. It is what it is, and does not bring us any closer to use the Mustang well, does it.
So, please, tell me something about our Mustangs :) and how NOT to make a fool of ourselves against the AI that we have today? ;)
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Im really only any good in 109's and P-40's. Go figure the only aircraft in game Ive flown in 10 years...
I think this is a key piece of info. You will fly well in what you are used to and these two planes do not require the finesse (Mental and physical) that the Mustang does. Remember, Dietrich Hrabak said "fly with your head, not your muscles"
I mostly fly P-51B and early Spitfire. So I know them inside and out. Once I tried a couple 109E campaigns and a couple DCG campaigns in the 109F - wow do I love that 109, it's an awesome airplane and if you can get in close you can blast your opponent open with one or two bursts - simply awesome and easy to fly. Honestly, it made it more challenging to go back to the Mustang, I had to be much more careful.
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BTW, there is a new campaign out for the Donkey Dingus
D/L here: http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads3&file=details&id=1064
SAS topic here: https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,21363.msg231929.html#new
The "Yoxford Boys" campaign I mentioned earlier.
You will find that in certain historic contexts, it's easier to thrive and survive against the mindless AI :)
Part of it will be you. Position your group so that the robotic minded AI will want to go after the bombers, then swoop in to protect them and you will have an energy and a position advantage. Keep it and use it wisely. May the Force be with you ;)
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From what I'm reading you have everything you need to know about flying a P-51D. You know all of its weaknesses. You know what it can out preform and what it can't. There's all kind of advice in here from specifications (Tom2) to maneuvers (yo-yo's, scissors). She ain't a dogfighter. She's an escort fighter, completely different. She is closer to the tatics of a P-38 than that of a Spit. She is designed to operate at altitude, not excel. In comparison to other fighters sure she should be the best at altitude but that's because was designed to be there. And the only way I'm going to get in a dogfight with a P-51D at low altitude is if I get bounced. And even then I'm going to be asking myself "what the hell am I doing down here?"
Energy is life. Always have more of it than your adversary. It won't keep you from getting killed, but it sure will help.
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Yes, in theory, in practice you were forced to dogfight many times (Read about Robin Olds WWII experience...).
The truth is, whatever I or somebody else may say, the P-51 is the biggest aviation fetish ever existed. That haunts the IL-2 experience too, and it 'll hunt every new WW II simulator, no matter how much the realism level, including the AI behaviour, will rise.
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A word on the Mustang. I have read this and that and personally I do not believe it's such an awesome plane. It performed well, was produced in large numbers and had insane range for that time. Most common US media will advertise it as uber-fast and uber-agile. From a pilots point of view, it's mostly advertised as reliable, comfortable and all around good. Plane performance is a subjective matter - raw charts do not cover real operating conditions, fuel quality, parts fatigue, weather etc. The Americans speak as highly of the P-51 as the Russians about La-7 and everyone else about the D-9. :D
I don't play DBW lately, but with 4.11 and the new AI and engine overheat, I'd say it's about right. If you fly properly and manage you pitch well, you can easily own a D-9. With the D-9, you can own a Mustang with a lot less effort (especially with the fire-power in mind since IL-2 doesn't give the .50 cal it's proper credit IMHO). I'd say it's fine.
I know that all the US plane fans will swallow the "P-51 was the best plane of WWII" propaganda, but you have to be reasonable about this. The allies won, they had more resources, had better teamwork tactics and were superior in numbers at the end of the war. The Mustang was good, but against what? Mostly outdated Me-109s built in a shed at the end of the war and flown be inexperienced pilots, because the Germans were running out of resources. I know with flight sims it's always the charts and veterans opinions, but war is more Starcraft than IL-2 - better economy and Zergrush grants the win, not one uber-unit. So if you ask me - the P-51 is OK.
By analogy, the popular statement says that the Spitfire was better than the 109 and Battle of Brittain proved this, however in IL-2 you can easily beat the Spit in a 109, if you do a lot of negative-g manoeuvring as the Spit's engine chokes during these and that correlates with historical data. On the other hand, in IL-2 you do not have bingo fuel after 3 minutes over the target and the enemy does not have radar advantage.
So just because the Mustang isn't a total ownage machine out of the box like the History Channel says, it does not mean it sucks. It just takes some effort to fly efficiently. Pro-tip from a not so pro pilot: 55% pitch unless in a climb really makes a difference. Oh, and the agility also depends on the prop pitch - with hight pitch , you're more likely to stall out while hard manoeuvring and a lot of rudder work is essential. Seriously do not complain, it's great plane, only it takes a lot of time to learn. I spent countless hours with it and I still feel like I have only scratched the surface. Perhaps it was easier for real pilots as they generally can properly feel the plane as compared to us flight-sim geeks, who only can rely on the visual aspect of flying. Anyway, stop complaining, it's not the plane - its the pilot.
Just my 3 cents.
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55%? Wow! I usually stick to within 5% of whatever the throttle is set at and back down to 75% or so at high speeds. At 55% it would take forever to accelerate but, if you can make that work then you must be flying very efficiently.
Nice post by the way.
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Thats about what I stick with. No reason to go more than 60% wile cruising.
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If anyone would like to know in detail how to fly the P51 in Il2, google Klingstroem, a real life pilot, one-time IL2 addict, and old GH teammate of mine. He has tracks, instructions, stick settings the lot on how to fly the old horse, and was virtually unbeatable.
http://www.352ndfg.com/vb/showthread.php?4041-The-352nd-VFG-now-hosts-GH_Klingstroem-s-P-51-Combat-Training-Information
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What an excellent thread! Thanks to all in this discussion so far. This is well worth reading through for some great information.
Despite the differing opinions our mutual love of the subject is so clear, I don't feel like such a wierdo now, cheers!
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hah - don't worry, Monty. you're still a weirdo, it's just that here you're in the company of fellow weirdos, lol :D
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Seriously.
I mean, what sort of guy thinks of big floppy donkey dingus for a thread title...
:D
Still makes me chuckle...
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Hey guys,
Mostly lurk here, and enjoy the EXCELLENT site, and all the hard work that everybody has done.....I just ain't got the words......
Anyway, will chance a few words.
I've flown the aluminum a couple times (dual control).
Both flights we burned 100LL, so the Manifold Pressure was waaaay limited. I don't think we ever pulled more than 50 inches, maybe a little less. It's been a loooong time, but the owner distinctly warned me to not push the MP up too high or we might hole a piston. Didn't get up in the Flight Levels as I recall, but did get above 10000 ft for a few minutes. It was clearly evident that the airplane wanted more power. No way it would let you trim it. No matter what I did, the ball would be out, or we would slip, take yer' pick. Until we started down. Just trimmed it over, out of like 16 thousand for 10...Zoom! It's CLEAN. Indicated airspeed quickly went past 250 and then it just felt *so right*. Much like a jet, except friggin LOUD. Less vibration than I expected. Once the speed got up for that brief moment, I did notice a LOT of ram air effect on the Manifold Pressure. More than I've seen on anything else I've flown. Don't know if this is normal or not. It wasn't a bitch, just a detail. When we leveled off at 10, after a bit the power needed to be bumped up, because we had slowed down and lost a couple inches of MP from reduced ram air.
OK. After all that, and thinking a while about all the high altitude flying I've done,....Now don't think I'm trying to preach gospel, because I certainly ain't a Mustang owner, but I'm of the opinion that above say, FL270, or thereabouts, you don't want to do ANYTHING that will slow you down. And for sure that's true above FL330. Up there, ram air is what you gotta have, to get her up on the step.
So, that means high altitude ACM in the Mustang is just plain using the airplane wrong (in my humble opinion). It's a runner, not a wrestler, or a dancer. When the enemy dives away, let him. Now you've got an altitude (energy) advantage on him, and forced him to disengage you and/or the bomber stream. Now all ya gotta do is wait for him to climb back up, and make him waste all his gas doing it all over again. Bottom line, he ain't shooting at anybody for a minute, and you can pounce and zoom back up at your leisure, holding him at bay. You're making him run at max continuous power for an extended period, and he can't tanker fuel like you do, so eventually he's gotta' break it off and go home.
Historically, the Mustang was never known as the greatest 1 on 1 dogfighter, although it was good enough in that role if exceptionally well flown. It was fast (particularly in cruise), and had legs. That's it's claim to fame. Ours emulate that fairly well, I think. They're certainly plenty of fun, and that's the main thing.
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...
edit: what you are saying is, somehow, the stang doesnt do its job with the guns, it does the job with its mere presence...
the hotshots in the game will hate to read this...
XD
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Cool info, thanks ;D
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"what you are saying is, somehow, the stang doesnt do its job with the guns, it does the job with its mere presence..."
Not at all. What I'm saying is that the Mustang, like any other fighter, has it's strengths and weaknesses, and the trick to using it effectively, is understanding what they are, and how best to either exploit, or avoid them, as the case may be.
Assuming the enemy isn't trying to get killed, or intentionally crash his ship, or blow the engine(s) up, samey-same as yourself, there's only so much risk he's willing to take at any given moment. If, for example, the fight is above FL300, and he's already been forced to dive away, and climb back up and chase the bombers down again, he's mucho vulnerable to whoever is just cruising along above him, waiting to pounce, and isn't likely to press the issue against a known-wise opponent who has the energy advantage. If he does, use the advantage to either kill him, or force him to dive away again. Repeat as necessary until he's dead, or hits BINGO fuel and retires. The Mustang's performance advantage in that regime, makes it's rather weak (typical US) armament good enough to not lose a bomber, or get killed, which equals a win for the day.
Compare that situation to a kamikaze on the deck, jinking all over the place, inbound to smack a carrier. I wouldn't think a Mustang would excell at that job in the least, unless maybe ya' hung a couple Sidewinders on it.
Wait a minute...
Mua-ha-ha-haaa.....
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he's mucho vulnerable to whoever is just cruising along above him, waiting to pounce, and isn't likely to press the issue against a known-wise opponent who has the energy advantage.
there is it, the mustang cruising above by the dozens, not doing their job with a trigger, but with their mere presence and well conserved energy advantage, against the poor climbing 109 (g6, worst of them all) or 110 G2 (even easier prey)
well, at least what i interpret. :)
and no, dat mustang would not at all be suited to that kind of Job... maybe with a couple of 20s and ammo to boot... the single random hit on the zero must be fatal...
:D