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Author Topic: Fw190D9 Early  (Read 17060 times)

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SAS~Sani

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Fw190D9 Early
« on: December 25, 2010, 05:19:18 AM »



Fw190D-9 Early

Can someone test if all 410 features are working with this plane?

lines to add:

air.ini:

Fw-190D-9early         air.FW_190D9early 2                                g01   SUMMER

plane_ru:

Fw-190D-9early            Fw-190D-9 early, 1944

weapons_ru:

#####################################################################
# Fw-190D-9early
#####################################################################
Fw-190D-9early.default                       Default
Fw-190D-9early.R1                            R1:2 x MG151/20
Fw-190D-9early.R2                            R1:2 x Mk108
Fw-190D-9early.R6                            R6:2 x WGr21
Fw-190D-9early.droptank                      Droptank
Fw-190D-9early.1xSC250                       1 x SC 250
Fw-190D-9early.1xAB250                       1 x AB 250
Fw-190D-9early.1xSC500                       1 x SC 500
Fw-190D-9early.1xAB500                       1 x AB 500
Fw-190D-9early.none                          Empty




Download Dora

Extract the zip to your MODS folder.


S!
Sani
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vanir

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Re: Fw190D9 Early
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2010, 11:33:19 AM »

This is sort of a combination of the D-0 preproduction examples delivered from mid43 and the early series production with the laderdruck I presume. The D-0 of course had no boost so a notleistung 1776PS in ideal conditions but they had the regular A-6 wing fitted, at least one example (destroyed on an airfield) had two Mk108.

By 1944 D-9 series production though FW had gone with pilot requests for centreline guns only and deleted outboard wing guns from the A-6 wing used on Doras. For technical reasons (according to Crumpp who has a restored Fw190A warbird and a ton of primary source documentation), the outboard wing guns on any FW could not be removed in the field and this had to be done at the factory, this was only done for schlacht and jabo variants. What pilots of fighter type Fw190A used to do according to field mechanics, was to instruct the outboard guns be left unloaded because their use against smaller targets like fighters was superfluous, but the guns themselves were retained in the wing as useless weight.
Pilots themselves often asked for deleted outer guns and it appears for Dora serial production it was finally observed by FW. Whilst it is still an A6 wing in essence, I believe provision for the fitment of outer guns was removed from all D-9 production.

There also appears to be some erroneous reporting of Jumo 213A maximum outputs, which are 1.7 atm and 1900PS on laderdruck and 2100PS at 1.78 atm on MW50 although both figures are a little ambiguous because pressures remained inconsistent with this engine series, it was tremendously subject to atmospheric conditions for example where Daimlers were a bit more reliable and of course had better throttle heights. Junkers and field crews couldn't even agree on idle speeds and especially in early Dora production the Jumo is noted as unreliable.
In this sense say for example in the stock vanilla IL2 the reliability characteristics of late war Messers and the early Dora at sondernotleistung are really the wrong way around, the DB605 was really pretty well sorted by then but the Jumo was having a ton of problems.

In addition there is forced labour sabotage, something noted by Allies flying captured versions of the Dora postwar, the entire airframes had to be disassembled to the last screw and rebuilt just to be airworthy due to all sorts of minor and probably intentional build faults and finish quality. Wright Field test pilots who flew the Dora there said they were quite startled that it had its capabilities in the condition they flew, even in rebuilt airworthy condition they described it as not very refined, pretty rough but equivalent to a Mustang in terms of maximum performance.
In the field German pilots said they could get around 20km/h speed increase by hand polishing the airframe so you'll see photos of shiny Doras (there's a good one at Falk Eins website). This however is an inverse example of delivery quality and is reminiscent of the early series Yak production.

Oh with the WGr21 it appears none were fitted to a Dora in practise despite some dedicated searching of documentation among members at LEMB. They're difficult to use and only experienced pilots were ever equipped with them in the first place (schwarm leaders and such), and R4M were available at the same time and easier to use. 21cm rockets are very powerful but aren't used by interceptors for direct hits, they're designed to knock bombers out of formation by concussion and other fighters then attack it. This isn't a good tactic at the end of the war because large formations were no longer available to the Luftwaffe, R4M allows the pilot to shoot down bombers by himself.

What appears to be the case is that late war Messer performance, for example the Erla G-10 remains heavily understated (I just found out there was a special, hand-finished high speed performance Erla K-4 production series too, with photographic evidence how fascinating is that!), whilst Fw Dora performance reputation appears to have become popularly overstated. A D-15 would've been a hell of a fighter, the same layout in one of the Ta152C prototypes was running around topping 617km/h at sea level and 2300PS quite heavily laden.

Hope I'm not offending you with all this. You do good work and are a real benefit to the sim community.
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Spinnetti

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Re: Fw190D9 Early
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2010, 11:40:36 AM »


you got the mod/class stuff figured out already? That was fast!
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Spinnetti

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Re: Fw190D9 Early
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2010, 11:44:15 AM »

This is sort of a combination of the D-0 preproduction examples...

Very interesting stuff! I'm still hoping to build a 75% scale replica one day.....
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Whiskey_Sierra_972

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Re: Fw190D9 Early
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2010, 12:32:06 PM »

Installed and tested: seem looking fine!

Thanks for the update mate!
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SAS~Sani

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Re: Fw190D9 Early
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2010, 03:41:04 PM »

There is a speed graph in Dietmar Harmann's book of Fw190D12...~770km/h at ~9500m :)...it might be calculated...so,what would be the real figure? :)
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Flanker35M

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Re: Fw190D9 Early
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2010, 05:05:26 PM »

S!

 Installed fine. Some notes: sight reticule is larger than the reflector glass. Too big? Can see through the fuselage just in front of the "cockpit bar". Otherwise flawlessly working.
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vanir

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Re: Fw190D9 Early
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2010, 12:18:18 AM »

Focke Wulf documentation (appears either Feb or Mar45) has projected performance (calculated, not test results) for the D-12 in the following flight condition: 213F running on C3 (1870PS start u/notleistung, 2050PS sondernotleistung with MW50 injected at the third stage intake) VS10 propeller, take off weight 4400kg, Mk108 motorkanone/2xMG151 and ETC rack fitted, 730km/h at 9150 metres.

The Jumo 213 continued development as troubles with the D-9 were discovered (preproduction flight testing began mid43). The 213E-1, 213EB, 213F and 213F-1 became proposed in succession as the serial production version was sorted. Technically the whole 213 family was still under development, but had entered production.

With the 213E-1 motor fitted in a FW document I've got on pdf dated June44 the projection using B4 fuel, (1750PS) VS10 propeller, TOW 4550kg, Mk108/4xMG151 and ETC rack fitted, 695km/h at 10500 metres (Ta152H with same engine projected 690km/h at same height).

The Jumo 213F was fitted to serial production versions delivered, which actually means it's got considerably more power than a D-9 at all but sondernotleistung setting where it is equivalent, but the lower throttle heights for the first/second stage gears would still make it faster by up to 20km/h up to 6000 metres where you'll be doing around 680km/h at sondernotleistung (in a pole race you'd draw away then it'd stay where it was, then you'd draw away a little more, then it'd gain on you a little bit, all the way up to 5500m then you'd continue drawing away).
And then comes the trademark problem with the supercharger setup. You hit the third stage and pull nice from 7000-8000m topping around 705km/h at sondernotleistung and then it starts kicking the gears back and forth. You might pull to 9000m doing 720km/h if you don't overspeed under sondernotleistung, or you might have to wind it back and top out at something like 710km/h.

That was the truth about the Jumo, where it fell short from projections.

Now around about the same time this was being found out by the RLM, in November44 Tank put a Daimler in a Dora and it actually did 730km/h over the airfield, that was what sold them on the D-14/15 and the Ta152C and cancelling the Ta152B and E and plans to later switch the Ta152H to a Daimler.
Projected performance between the two engine families was actually about the same, it was just that the Jumo didn't achieve it.

My opinion on the graph you mentioned Sani? There's a typo and it's 670km/h because that matches the speed at that height in the June 1944 Focke Wulf performance estimates for the D-12, described above. Is it an original document reproduction or a third party table?

It might be worth mentioning though, the Jumo manages a reliable 1800PS at 8000 metres and the Daimler probably more than that and I don't think anything but a suped up P-47 superweapon can manage that, and they had their own problems in practise with pilot reports of turbo overspeeding from 8000 metres.
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vanir

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Re: Fw190D9 Early
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2010, 12:49:19 AM »

Let's say you were going to make the offline SAS il2 installation a completely fictional and very arcade style setup, using artistic license rather than historical accuracy with the intention of giving gamers a gaming style feeling for the differences without having the actual blood and guts of a historical flight sim trying to model the drawbacks and difficulties of actually making aircraft in 1944 do impressive things.

Here's what you'd do. You'd make the P-47D 150 octane version do 740km/h at 7000m and drop off. You'd make the D-12 and Ta152H do 750km/h at 8000m and drop off, but the Ta152H you'd give a little boost at 12500m back up to 720km/h. And you'd make the D-14 and Ta152C do 770km/h at 9000m and then drop off. At about 12000m you'd find the Ta152H and D-14/Ta152C roughly similar but the Daimler would feel like it had more grunt. And up to about 8000m the hi-po P-47 would feel like a monster.
But this would be nowhere near historical in terms of figures and dedicated enthusiast appreciation.
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SAS~Sani

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Re: Fw190D9 Early
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2010, 03:53:00 AM »

Thanks for the info :)...

Focke Wulf Fw190 "Long Nose",page 154...it's not just a number,but the whole speed curve on the graph (with several other 190 models) dated 3.1.1945..

There are two versions of D12 there,one with Jumo213F and other with Jumo213EB...213Fhas a top speed of 730km/h at 9750m,213EB just a little over 770km/h at 9600m.

Don't get me wrong,I'm not interested in turning this into arcade...I'm thinking about modeling all those technical difficulties,but such mod would be a compatibility nightmare :(
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WulfPack3

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Re: Fw190D9 Early
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2011, 12:06:08 AM »

Nice!
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Logan

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Re: Fw190D9 Early
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 03:54:05 PM »

:D
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