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[Kopfdorfer]

This is my second request/proposal/challenge

I suggest a filling out of the model types of the Ju88A line would be very doable, allowing IL2 to represent this most versatile aircraft from the first days of the war to the last.
We currently have the Ju88A4, the most prolific model, and the Ju88A17 Torp variant of the A4.
I propose adding the Ju88A-1, the Ju88A-5, and the Ju88A-13[Thanks Karabas for this lethal ground pounder -  now released].

Ju88A-1


The first model of the class to see combat was the Ju88A-1 which was built to 69 examples by the end of 1939. The first squadron equipped was I/KG25 which participated in the entire Polish Campaign. Production of the Ju88 started slowly, with only about 1 aircraft per week coming off the line in 1939.
The first squadron to see action on the western front was I/KG 30, in an attack on Britain on Sept 26, 1939.
The aircraft type was acquitting itself well, and in the Norwegian campaign in April 1940, Ju88s of II/KG30 were involved in the sinking of the Destroyer HMS Ghurka, and the damaging of the Battleship HMS Rodney.

The Ju88A-1 was powered by 2  inverted vee liquid cooled Junkers Jumo 211B-1 or G engines, generating 1200 hp at take off.
The aircraft had a range of 2,285 ,miles with a bombload of 1,102 lbs, and a range of 782 miles with the maximum bombload of 5,291 lbs.
Defensive weapons were 3 x MG 15, though the type was upgraded to more effective weapons as time progressed.
The A-1 was equipped with divebrakes.

Ju 88A-1



While a dependable and fully aerobatic aircraft, the A-1 had a shorter wingspan than its later models
(59' 10.75"), and its airframe was not as robust, especially in high speed manoeuvers. (I expect that this would also reduce its climb capability, and enable it to make sharper turns, though the FM gurus will have to duke it out over that).


Combat experience demonstrated that the A-1 was under-armed. Field modifications saw the rear firing dorsal gun replaced by a pair of MG 15s, and a fifth gun added in the lower nose.  As more A-5s and A-4s entered service, the A-1s were modified to A-5 standard (wings extended etc).



The next production model was the Ju88A-4, but teething problems with the new Jumo 211F engines (1400 hp at takeoff) slowed its distribution to combat units (later versions had Jumo 211Js). It had an extended wingspan (65' 7.5"), strengthened structural members, and 5 x 7.92mm MGs (one fixed forward, one in the nose, one in the ventral gondola, and 2 in the turret rear). Its maximum payload was 7,936 lbs, 2200 lbs internally.

Ju 88A-5


The Ju88A-5 was a stop-gap model using the new airframe of the A-4, but powered by Jumo 211B, G-1, or H-1 engines (1200 hp at takeoff).The A-5 thus saw service prior to the A-4. This model proved to be very popular with crews.
In addition to other hardware of the Ju88A-4, the A-5 had two additional ETC 250 hardpoints outboard of each engine and divebrake. Later builds (and conceivably field modified versions) had double bulged rear cockpit canopies, improving the rear turret gunners' views and angles of fire.


The Ju88A-13 was a low level attack version of the aircraft built on the airframe of the Ju88A-1 or A-4 (sources disagree which), powered by Jumo 211H engines generating 1,1080 hp. It had the dive brakes and the bomb sight removed, and added armor to the undersides of the engines and crew compartment and fuel tanks. It's bombload was anti-personnel bomblets (Abwirfbehalter) in loads of 250,500 or 1000 bomblets, and /or with up to four underwing  mg pods(waffenbehalter) of 7.92 MG81z (zwilling/twin)  giving a forward firepower of up to 24 (4x6mgs)  x 7.92 mm MGs!!!

"A small number of Ju88A-13s appear to have been in service."



Hope you like these as much as I do...

Kopfdorfer

[HundertzehnGustav]

hold on, Kopf...

left wing: 3 Canisters of 2 MG' s: 6MG
right wing: 3 Canisters of 2 MG' s: 6MG

total: 12 MG

+ defensive armament + antipersonnel Bombs

????

[Kopfdorfer]

Yes Hundertzehn,

                       My math is always questionable, and those were the only images of waffenbehalter I could find, but the article I read - not verified - stated that up to 24 x 7.92 could be carried. Perhaps another version of waffenbehalter with more mgs in pod? I am always willing for others to correct me with proof or strong arguments!

Kopfdorfer

[HundertzehnGustav]

the only fitting gun package i could imagine would be to take the 4xMG17 gun pack off the HS126 (the twin engined tankbuster) and to strap four of these on the innerwing hardpoints.

that would give us 16 guns, but, how the fuc* would one Synch (a minimum of) 4 of these guns with the Jumo engine and the prop?
--> at least the ones close to the engine nacelle, as a pilot i would want to have them synch'ed for sure, if not all eight. I don't need no dozens of bullets hitting my inner wings and Fuselage...

--> was this modification done on a Ju-88 C, a dayfighter with guns and Cannon (MG-FF) in the nose?

a puzzling Job for sure!
Wish you could come up with a technical drawing or a photo showing the gunpack arrangement.

You imagine? Sitting in the Back of the truck, and out of the morning sky, props slowed, engine cut, dive 4/6 of these Junkers. The Whole column, dozens of Trucks will be set ablaze, hundreds or a thousand of dead soldiers...

 

Slaughter...

[Kopfdorfer]

Found a German site with photos of a Waffenbehalter containing 6 !!! x MG 18 in one pod, which would indicate that a Ju88 with 4 x ETC 250 racks could indeed mount 24 x 7.92 MG 18 !!!.
With a standard ammo load of 250 rounds per gun that adds up to 1500rounds per waffenbehalter x 2 or 3000 rounds of 7.92 ammo coming at ya!


Mit downward angle WB 81B on a Ju88 (A-13 with divebrakes?)


Hope this image shows!

Kopfdorfer

[vanir]

I support this, but also more complete C-series, there are C-6 mods available and very handy (these were a prominent feature for mission builders in 1943 Süd Öst campaign eg. Kharkov and surrounding areas as convoy/train strafers alongside Panzerschlachtflug and Schlachtjagdflug)

But importantly the earlier Ju-88C-2 are a vital component of Norwegian mission building from 1940 onwards. Based with Fliegerführer Trondheim these were the German only fighter type you'd ever really see as far north as Narvik, aside from He115C with Luftflotte 5 Seefliegerverbände (work with me here, these are fighters mmmkay?).

With Luftflotte 5 in general you're talking really some Bf-110D, He-115C (it's a B fitted with a cannon gondola) and you guessed it, the Ju-88C-2 that were really the main fighter types and this is the closest thing Germany ever got to a maritime air force. Some Bf-109E were used for base protection (useless for patrols), and Bf-109D were used as nightfighters at places like Trondheim.
But anyways the 88C-2 is a major type we need in the game to make best use of some of the maps we have. If you were going to do a ranging fighter patrol over Gulf of Finland, Murmansk or Norwegian maps it would invariably be in a Ju-88C-2 from Luftflotte 5 and it's only competition is going to be from things like export Gladiators, which it'll make mince meat out of.

As for the ground strafers from what I understand they were ad hoc like the He-111H of "eis" KG just fitted out with guns like a B-25 and used against troop concentrations when you didn't have a Ju-88C-6 handy. These were used at Kharkov alongside the C-6 for example, by the two specialist KG staffeln (I'd really like it if someone could tell me what the subtitle "Eis" for KG equipped with gunships might translate as).

From what I understand, particularly in the land battles in early 43 on the Eastern Front the initial concern was a 5 to 1 numerical superiority in troops (locally at least Wehrmacht could still concentrate equipment), so Ju-87 were pressed back into service fitted with gunpods like the wb-81 series for strafing massed troops, schlacht had taken over the traditional stuka role and could make a mess of equipment concentrations, and bombers were being specially modified to range towards supply trains and convoys and blast those with cannon packs and whatnot.
It was all very ad hoc, none of these types were originally designed to do these things, and must've looked like backyard modifications in the field by a desperate army.

[Avimimus]

Are we confusing the MG-81 with ...well ...is it two guns or one guns? I'm confused.

Maybe we should measure it by combined barrel length or weight (that's what biologists do to fungi or other organisms which don't have distinct individuals).

[HundertzehnGustav]

worse - such a gunpod needs what - a SC250 attachment point, and can therefor be carried on a Ju-87 too i guess.

Really starts to scare me.

[Kopfdorfer]

Hey Guys,

             I am glad to have sparked a little interest - I apologize for my ineptness in posting at the beginning. Thank you RIken for patience.

Vanir, I agree that other Ju88 models are also lacking - it was the most versatile horse in the shed for the LW, and deserves more complete recognition sim wise, but my intention in this thread was to attempt to approach the A model with the intent of adding what I thought were the minimal models to fill out that mark of Ju88 in terms of full WWII coverage.
         Honestly, I found the reference to the A-13 and its mega pods of MG18 by accident, and then, well I couldn't NOT mention it.
If I were to concentrate on what I feel is the most important missing Ju88A it would have to be the A-1, which while built in much smaller numbers than the A-5, and requiring more modding with different wingspan, less armour, lower hp engine fewer older MG defences etc, it WAS the version that convinced the LW to build the Ju88 as a major production type, and the A-1 is recorded to have fought in Poland, Scandinavia, France, BoB,Channel Kampf, Med and Ostfront.
I think it deserves to be there before any other non-modded Ju88.
The A-5 would be a slightly easier mod build, I believe, with some FM changes from the A-4, a couple of ETC 250 racks outboard of the engines, and an intermediate # and quality of defensive MGs.

For your consideratino modders.

Kopfdorfer

[Kopfdorfer]

Hey Guys,

               A quick correction :

               According to Jane's Aircraft of World War II, the Ju88A-13 ground attack aircraft was based on the Ju88A-1 NOT the Ju88A-4 as I previously posted. This makes good military sense actually, as the A-4 was the most utilized model of the Ju88 and therefore in heavy use operationally from its first appearance, and the A-1 was obselescent after the BoB.

For Hundertsehn, I did in fact find an image of the waffenbehalter 3 x MG81Z (6 x 7.92MGs) in use on a Ju87!






Kopfdorfer

[HundertzehnGustav]

told you, dude

that waffenbehälter rocks...

makes me wonder, once again, why so many loadiuts of the late war are not featured in the stock game.
thze only strafer stuka there is, is the Panzerknacker... whereas  gunpods such as this one would be just as useful in combat.

Kopfdorffer, you opened a pretty ninteresting topic right there, good call!

[OberstDanjeje]

This Ju87 mods have the WB loadout:

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,7910.0.html

Anyway as far as I remember the Ju88A-5 was similat at the A-4 but with the A-1 wingspan