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Author Topic: 109F-2 R6 loadout  (Read 2179 times)

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baronWastelan

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109F-2 R6 loadout
« on: March 21, 2011, 11:01:15 PM »

I have a DZZ mod that includes a 109F-2U with R6 (20mm under wings).  Is this something that ever got used operationally, or is it a "what-if" mod?
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Der Wüstenfuchs

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Re: 109F-2 R6 loadout
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 07:11:52 AM »

Yeah, it was used as far as I know. There were some pilots (Galland) that customized/improved their aircrafts, such adding 20mm MG cannons under each wing.
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OberstDanjeje

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Re: 109F-2 R6 loadout
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 12:29:30 PM »

As far as I remember the F got different wings with less space for the cannon, so the cannons in the wings was dropped
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baronWastelan

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Re: 109F-2 R6 loadout
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 12:47:50 PM »

Kameraden: thank you for the replies, but this R6 gunpods option is something not included in SAS~Anto's outstanding 109 pack.  For clarification:

# Bf-109F-2_U1_DZZMod
#####################################################################
Bf-109F-2_U1_DZZMod.default             Default
Bf-109F-2_U1_DZZMod.R1                  R1: 1xSC 250
Bf-109F-2_U1_DZZMod.R3                  R3: 1xType D Droptank
Bf-109F-2_U1_DZZMod.R6                  R6: 2xMG 151/20 Gunpods
Bf-109F-2_U1_DZZMod.R1R6                R1R6: MG 151/20 Pods+SC250
Bf-109F-2_U1_DZZMod.R3R6                R3R6: MG 151/20 Pods+Droptank
Bf-109F-2_U1_DZZMod.none                Empty

Note different options in Anto's latest version:

# Bf-109F-2/U
#####################################################################
Bf-109F-2U.default                       Default U1: MG131s + MG151/20
Bf-109F-2U.1sc250                        U1 + 1x SC-250
Bf-109F-2U.4sc50                         U1 + 4x SC-50s
Bf-109F-2U.droptank                      U1 + 1x Type D Drop Tank
Bf-109F-2U.U2-2xMGFF                     U2: 2x MG17 + 2x MGFF
Bf-109F-2U.U2-1sc250                     U2 + 1x SC-250
Bf-109F-2U.U2-4sc50                      U2 + 1x SC-50s
Bf-109F-2U.U2-droptank                   U2 + 1x Type D Drop Tank
Bf-109F-2U.none                          Empty
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SAS~Anto

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Re: 109F-2 R6 loadout
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2011, 07:14:21 AM »

I think people are getting matters confused. The only gun pods that seemed to be used on the F series were the MG151/15 gunpods used on the Russian front (in previous discussions, some people have shown resources suggesting usage of MG151/20s, but most documents say this was not standardized until the Gustavs).

As for Adolf Gallands aircraft, different story. He did NOT use gun pods on his Friedrichs. He had two aircraft, namely F-2/U1 and F-2/U2. The U1 was modified to have a MG151/20 motorkanone and used an experimental setup of two MG131s in the cowling. This aircraft had two small aerodynamic blisters above the cowling with shell ejection chutes underneath. The U2 was rid of the motorkanone and kept 2x MG17s but adopted two wing mounted MG-FFs much in the same as the Emil series before. Both aircraft were painted identically except for the Mickey Mouse, which was painted backwards on one aircraft. Since gunpods were not in service at that time (at least not in the Western front), I doubt that Galland's aircraft ever carried them.
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slipcork

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Re: 109F-2 R6 loadout
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2011, 05:52:09 PM »

Galland's F-2 did not have underwing gondolas for his mg 20's,they were specially mounted internally in the wings.
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SAS~Sani

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Re: 109F-2 R6 loadout
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2011, 01:04:36 AM »

Motor cannon vs wing cannons....Galland said that motor cannon was favored by aces and wing cannons by average pilots and beginners....
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vanir

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Re: 109F-2 R6 loadout
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2011, 01:51:43 PM »

Anto is right. The first gondolas were a limited run of F-4/R6 using 15mm guns of about six aircraft used by JG54 on the Eastern Front in their jabo staffel. They didn't appear again until the 20mm guns iirc standardised for the G-6 but retrofitted to G-2/4 still in service during the step up of the western Allied bombing campaign coming into 1943.

The F prototypes used a modified Emil wing right off the line, so it was easy for Galland to request the retention of MGFF. This was actually part of an RLM evaluation of ideal weaponry standardisation. According to technicians the improved ballistics, performance and reliability of the MG151 made it equivalent to a pair of MGFF even with the smaller calibre (shown by Rechlin tests against aircraft armouring and deflection plates). And against fighter sized targets it was. But the problem was bombers, which like nice big explosive charge sizes to do good damage, so pilots immediately complained about the 15mm calibre (which actually has much better armour penetration than the 20mm).

At the same time there were two schools of thought on the mounting of weapons. Galland believed the more weapons the better despite a reduction in aircraft performance, because the object was having more inexperienced cadets get successful kills for a net gain. Moelders camp believed centreline armament was better for accuracy, finesse and higher performance and that cadets should be taught to fly before they can fight for a longer lived air force. All the top line aces were in Moelders camp, which won out until the Allied bombing campaign demanded heavy gunships over fast fighters. The title of General der Jagdflieger passed to Galland after Moelder's death, he was the second choice.

I've only seen mention of rumours about Galland's MG131 equipped F-prototype and had always personally thought it was a myth (the breeches are very bulky on the 131 and would not fit under anything smaller than G-6 humps or a completely redesigned cowling). There are photos of his MGFF equipped F-prototype however and there were experiments to improve the streamlining of the original Emil cowling (the F prototypes were actually in whole heavily modified Emils, not just the wings, in fact them and the preproduction series which were also based on Emil modifications had a habit of snapping in half just ahead of the tailplane, the F-1 was grounded and recalled for this early in production...but there is a rumour Galland was flying his prototype in service at the end of 1940).

Here's what I had postulated, some bystanders saw Galland's MGFF equipped Friedrich and because it was a prototype of a new variant they assumed the MGFF in the wings were actually the new MG131 that were entering production and these would equipped the new model in the wings. The MG151 was not finished development and nobody really knew about it at the time, only that the MGFF would be replaced and a new motorkanone was also in development. So the myth of the MG131 Galland special was created.

He may have had an MG151 motorkanone prototype fitted to it at some stage for operational testing but I find it unlikely, it would've been 15mm and it was still in development until mid-42.

I'd be interested to view any (primary source) documentation suggesting otherwise, but these contentions appear to be the technical realities of the time.
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