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[HundertzehnGustav]

so, its sunday again, and i have a few minutes to let my mind roam free.

Where do i start?
the tech area seems to be full of problems and help requests caused by individual mods... people using

modactivator+
plane mods
effects mods
addon maps
various extras

on the other hand, there are two major mod packs  (hsfx and UP) that are providing the same thing, or almost, all integrated in one install. these have been compared for compatibility. they have been tested if the functionalities are working.
So i am really wondering, why the blooming heck are people still using:

4,101+
modactivator
maps
planes
effects
ai mods
textures and cockpits
,,,

?

Okay, i obviously see, and agree, to the freedom of choice. no doubt. no bad feelings.
it is just that i do not see the advantage to use individual mods any more.

Maybe i have forgotten?
back in the CFS3 days there were no mod packs, and i still clearly remember the shit i waded through when i did a reinstall.

CFS3
Patch 3,1
B-25 Gauge patch
Nations extension pack
Individual Planes - From the Mudpond/1%/Avhistory site
Weapons pack
Individual Standalones + their respective weapons
ships and their weapons/textures
ground vehiecles and their weapons
sound packages for the individual planes
factories and facilities

... and if you forgot just ONE file, out of about 35,000 to install... you were toast. thing is, you could not really test your install either, because of AI random spawns messing things up. One install could take as long as two entire days (afternoon+evening)... just to crash with no error message three weeks later. no error log, no nothing.

That was the point where i gave up.. and slowly switched to Il-2

later they have made MAW... that was not bad... not bad at all! new theater, new planes, a Package that had everything. I was even able to port over the planes from MAW to my "CFS3". worked for some time too.

Its been the same story with Silent Hunter III back in ´05... individual Mods creating havoc on the forums, heads smoking while trying to help, conflicts everywhere, from simple textures to GUI and torpedo commands...
... until the advent of dedicated Mod packs. And the continuation of these mod packs (anyone say Grey Wolves and Grey Wolves extension pack) by people that built mods.

Once such a Mod group had defined the content of their package... they hung about together on the interwebs, and continued to develop their own package. Mods were built to fit into these packages. The peoplöe that created such mods adapted them to fit into modpackage "A" or modpackage "B"

Like, people developping Mods, having the idea, and making it so that the mod is compatible with UP or HSFX. (in Il-2 terms)

So, obvious question:
-With Big modpacks a la UP and HSFX (the only ones i know) about, why are mods still being created to be used "on their own"?

-What are the advantages of taking a stock install, ignore the modpacks and create a patchwork of mods? Please, teach me, i dont see the reasons...

-Is the "freedom of modding" not creating a "frustrating fight against incompatibilities" on the forums?


Okay, before you kick me in the nuts - i have a positive attitude to modding. am enthousiastic, and try to be helpful and all.
But i still wonder, and have been stratching my head for the last weeks now...

[SAS~Malone]

i can recommend a good anti-dandruff shampoo, that might help for the scratching....
joking aside, mods in general will always be developed 'on their own' as this is what each modder does....he takes one part/piece of the game, and mods it....the big packs come in handy when you have a very big install with long slow loading times....in this case, a big pack with native sfs archived files will help.
adding individual mods will always be something that many will want to do, as it's not practical to wait for a new mod to be incorporated into a big pack....say, a cool fx mod irs released today - i am not going to want to wait for the release of UP4 before i can use it....

[HundertzehnGustav]

yea, thats true...

but look, if I want to mod something today. I want... the perfect Nuke effect. i work long nights, and pull it off. Do that Java Magik, and the textures and stuff.
Why is it not common use to get in touch with the HSFX and UP guys, either before i release it to "the wild masses", and talk to them about the adaptation of that effect. Compare files, share knowledge. Do the Teamwork thing.

After all, Mods that have been released, are checked for compatibiyty, and have been repacked into SFS files, then released as a Mod package arelike what... a thousand times more stable and compatible than this patchwork, glued-together stuff that some choose to use?

I am NOT trying to say that individual modders with an idea, a concept are just fucking around with the files, creating a useless mess.
It just strikes me that, using a Mod package as a Base ...
and a single person coming about with an idea...
if that idea can be INserted into the mod package via teamwork, communication and the share of knowledge
Then this represents a major step forwards.

Like, at the moment many modders are just, ehm, "doing their thing", trying to get "it" to work. on an individual basis, with no concerns of compatibility whatsoever.

But it seems to me a most valuable choice to make, that once "the mod" has  successfully passed Beta stage, either on a stock game (+modact) or on a Modpackage game that it would be an absolutely normal step to take... calling up the modpack guys and , like, "offering" their work for inclusion, for everyone to profit of.
(offering, proposing, lending, selling, you get the picture)

Inclusion into UP4 or HSFX of said Nuke effect. everyone can have it, and its compatible. Perfect.

as it's not practical to wait for a new mod to be incorporated into a big pack

okay...
grandad always told me "patience, Grasshopper"

the big packs come in handy when you have a very big install with long slow loading times....in this case, a big pack with native sfs archived files will help

i have the feeling that this is incomplete - what about:

the big packs come in handy as a perfectly working substandard of the game. Not an official version, but a "ground zero" on wich future mods can, will (should?) be based off to assure compatibility, and remove the need for individual patchwork installs, and the tedious and frustrating troubleshooting processes on the SAS

so in practice:

If you want a modded game, because certain aspects of the mods appeal to you, please turn towards your favourite mod package.

and after that:

instead of developping mods off 4,09 and 4,101 files, please use the UP/HSFX/Modpackage X files, and seek approval for inclusion and increase of compatibility

=============================
Pause, coffee, peewee break
=============================

ok, that would make said Modpack groups the key point in the distribution of mods. it would give the UP/HSFX/Modpack X guys more power.
I guess that individual modders do not wish that to happen, its against modding freedom and having your own philosophy (AAA policies anyone...)

BUT:

If the UP/HSFX/Modpack X people have this power, because the individual modders have offered their mods, this is like, how do you say... a Syndicate.
And such a syndicate can maybe get in touch with Team daidalos and the likes, for complete inclusion of the mods in future packages.

===========================

and there would be no more:

help me!!!! i installed a mod, but izz noz wurking dammit!! Thread N°999999

(wich is the real goal of my train of thought)

[Vampire_pilot]

you can't stop stupid posting on the web. less perhaps and less obvious maybe but it would still be there.

the current situation would never gotten that bad if it wasn't for the breakpoint 4.101 thing. This created the huge timegap that modding needed to get the act together and be even able to deliver modpacks again.

During this timegap a lot of standalone-mods where created (which ended up in packs later on again) and people got confused because in 4.09 times compatibility wasn't *that* big an issue. Now we have old stuff not yet updated to 4.10, stuff from 4.09 that conflicts with new 4.101 and/or updetad mods for 4.10 modpacks... blah. talk about confusing

so, an experineced user knows *how to* mod - a casual computer noob who likes to click all exe within reach can't handle this and ends up posting stuff like "help me!!!! i installed a mod, but izz noz wurking dammit!!"

I live by the golden rule: "Modding at my own risk". and to be honest, after so many years of Il2 modding, there is just so much stuff out there... and people still ask on boards about "... where can I download AAAv1.2 Modpack puleez?" (no kidding).
A lot of people think modding is a thing as easy as the bought product (even worse: request that modding has to be that way) - but it is different: Modding is something you must learn. you also have to have an interest in getting more knowledge over the time. If you do not you will end up screwing your game and blame the modders. I would only blame myself.

This just can't be helped and I believe neither forcing individual modding nor modpacks could have avoided the current situation we have due to the 4.101 patch.

From my perspective, modpacks with sfs is about the only way these days to get a handlable mod "base" installation if you don't want minutes and minutes of loading time.

also: Modpacks bring a common ground in maps and objects and planesets.

This is essential for mission and campain builders.
There has been a (awful) trend lately only to release maps with H U G E amount of costum objects for example that blow the installation up to it's limits. Therea re already 1000s of objects - why even more reskins of hangars??? or that special PTO hut i will never see because I dogfight at 5000 meters?

to each his own I guess.

but when making a campaign based on mods I want to tell the users what they have to have in order to play it and pardon me - I cannot recall each mod or objectpack I installed months (or years) ago!
It is far more easier to tell them: this was made on UP xy and if you have that as a base you will be fine to play it.

this allows the maps to be populated with missions and campaigns and see use.
also this keeps a whole scene alive when you get new playable input and know that it will work in your game.

[HundertzehnGustav]

"... where can I download AAAv1.2 Modpack puleez?"

Yea, bro... i have red stuff like this too... half smile, half crying...

A lot of people think modding is a thing as easy as the bought product

That is one of the very few things i realized ages ago.
maybe people complaining need to remember?

All of this, the AAA, the AAS, the HSFX, the russian dudes doing their thing, the SAS was never meant to be.
Oleg and the crew worked hard to prevent all of todays modding... about a dozen years back.
This isnt FSX or CFS or strike fighters.

Maybe that is where my own frustration comes from: people do not realize that sometime in the past, someone, has found a way "in".
Their names i dont know (Qtim comes to mind, teach me the others.). They and their Friends created tools, for others to work with, and so it all began.
The result is that the noobs of today, at least to my feeling... are swarming the forums and are sometimes like, dare i say, disrespectful, unpatient, ingrate customers, not knowing what they are talking about.

This just can't be helped and I believe neither forcing individual modding nor modpacks could have avoided the current situation we have due to the 4.101 patch.

Yes - i have seen this sort of rapture, this splitting... 4,09 not living along with 4,101. Neither on peoples HDD, nor in this place, that i think of a mixture between Bar and Workshop.
But is this , like, saying: the official updates ruined our work? I believe such a train of thought leads us nowhere.

From my perspective, modpacks with sfs is about the only way these days to get a handlable mod "base" installation if you don't want minutes and minutes of loading time.

also: Modpacks bring a common ground in maps and objects and planesets.

thats what i am saying... establish a common ground. A base that the community can work off.

Therea re already 1000s of objects - why even more reskins of hangars??? or that special PTO hut i will never see because I dogfight at 5000 meters?

Why?
Immersion.

Grey wolves expansion, back then, had one gigabyte of Data.
Friday, at work, i had to ABuse the work network for 12 hours to grab my copy of UP3RC. 6 point 2 GB of Files. Mindblowing. No shit sherlock.
This confuses me. The amount of content created is staggering. I would dare saying that the community creates more content, based on the games tools and features, than any official Modding/Updating group can ever do.
and the quality... you seen asheshouse doing his thing with the ships? fook me!

But, taking a look at the future:
I do not mind more content. as long as it makes sense, well done, is used more than once, and compatible... i am going to download 10 GB of data. How i dont know, but i will. Its just too addicting.

to each his own I guess.

combined with

I live by the golden rule: "Modding at my own risk"

if that were my stance... i would refuse to help people, completely giving up the "modding is good" attitude.
I cant do much but read and think, give hints and tips, but i would stop doing even that...

but when making a campaign based on mods I want to tell the users what they have to have in order to play it and pardon me - I cannot recall each mod or objectpack I installed months (or years) ago!
It is far more easier to tell them: this was made on UP xy and if you have that as a base you will be fine to play it.

again, +1 for modpacks as a base for modding.

this allows the maps to be populated with missions and campaigns and see use.
also this keeps a whole scene alive when you get new playable input and know that it will work in your game.

i stopped adding mods to my game, like, a year ago... just because i realized that, what campaigns i had created yould be used by... half a dozen people, because the planeset and mods requirement was not based on a simple modpack. UP didnt have what was needed. the user had to add stuff.
and the user would FAIL adding that stuff. he would get errors... and then mail me because he needed help.

and i would not understand what he wanted me to do, venting his frustration and his anger , and in the same sentence requesting instructions and help, and please fix the error...

and i would be unable to help him.

and the whole Campaign i wrote.... for nada. waste of time. just because he did not have the Ju-87C...

========================

in short, again that is whey i am, like, "promoting" this idea today  - developping mods FOR modpacks, instead of mods based on 4,09/4,10 that lead to incompatibilities and busted installs, troubleshooting on the forum, a lot of calls.

=======================

a casual computer noob who likes to click all exe within reach can't handle this and ends up posting stuff like "help me!!!! i installed a mod, but izz noz wurking dammit!!"

i have seen a bunch of those over the last month. personally speaking, these people are not worth my effort, because they
-do not read a readme
-use beta mods and then come complaing
-cannot distinguish 4,09 from 4,10
-cannot report their problems in a comprehensible way
-are too young to use the internet
-other bull...

Modpacks for the win. No more messing around with files for me. More power to the Modding teams.
And monday evening, i will copy my 4,101 game folder, install the UP3RC, and over a cuppa coffee, read the entire UP3 readme.

That i have printed out at work.

Thx Boss.

[SAS~Poltava]

I agree that modpacks are the way to, and as a campaign builder I have become more and more cautious about using other things than a bog standard MOD pack (right now it's HSFX 5.01) as a basis for my work, because otherwise, as you have pointed out, a lot of people just will get frustrated, as they have missed something.

For me MOD's fall into two categories: A.) those needed to build and play a campaign, and nowadays I'm very weary of using ANY standalone MODS in this category, of the above mentioned reason. (And I must say I REALLY agree about the problems with all those special objects put together for some maps. There are some excellent maps out there that are really not used as often they deserve to be due to the simple fact that they require a real PITA install, with special objects and then some. ???) B.) Those who doesn't affect campaigns, mainly special visuals, special effects, cockpits and the like. Here you can roam free!

At the same time all MOD's start with individual work, so saying stop to all stand-alone MOD's would be to say no to new MOD's. The community needs pack in order to play as a community, but at the same time it of course need all those individual MOD's that people are creating. And that eventually will land get "knighted" and land in a Mod Pack.

It's a dilemma.

[HundertzehnGustav]

but is it impossible? There must be a common philisophy...
Modding cannot stop. Modding is good. For the Modders who channel and improve their abilities, learning new things, to the user who gets enhamced tools to build campaigns, for everyone to profit.

I take a look at the current standards, and i am talking offline here.:

4,09.
to be phased out

4,10
ok, but not perfect because of incompatoibilities with modpacks

4,101
improved 4,10, official standard

UP2,1
to be phased out (see 4,09)

HSFX 5,1
good modding Base

UP3,0RC
soon to be  "good modding base" (2 weeks

Question:
what are other standard Packages used by Offline players, or, anyway 1946 players in common?
Please complete the list. I think there are others, but i do not know.

Mods can be developped for Modpacks, that i am sure of.
And adapted from one modpack to another, if the mod creator is interested.

[SAS~CirX]

re. most the things you mention above: As is proper, we are waayyyy ahead of you already.

The system that is comming out next weekend (barring disasters) will be the thing offliners have been waiting for for years, and the common base everyone has been screaming for.
(However, one must add that those screaming the loudest for common bases are usualy surprisingly reluctant to accept any such thing that is not under their direct control )

We have been very clear for a very long time about what we are aiming for (that is, UP and SAS).

1) We are going to make a large and stable , no corners cut, secure, dedicated to online use, pack for online users (by stable, I mean, not something you are going to ever have to replace again, like in the past. You are just going to be building on it untill you stop playing IL2)

2) We are going to make a no-holds-barred, no online considerations alowed, no punches pulled, highly moddable, dedicated pack for use by offline players only, using the archives of the online pack as a common starting ground. This is going to be seperate from the SAS Modact. It is a whole new thing, and you will require UP3 for it to work. It is aimed at shifting the "jumping off" point, where stock ends, and mods begin, up from stock and onto a level with what has been achived in modding so far, and, without any concessions to online play. And we will regularitly update and expand it to the hilt, and in SFS format. If you are a hardcore offline player, mission or campaign builder, or modder, then for you, Nirvana has just arrived. Some might already have picked up the name of this system in the forum.

Part one is there, albeit not in it's final version yet
Part two is a week away.

HSFX is also a good modding base, but, it is much smaller, much more dedicated to a certain field, and it is not that pack that we as an SAS team helped to custom build, so that we can achive the above mentioned. It is a great option for people, and I for one will continue to support them and use the HSFX pack and enjoy it. Also so for other packs, most of which are even more specialised.

But as far as our official stuff goes (SAS), we have made's our choice and payed's our money long ago, and we are very happy with our choice, and with the results of it. I believe that offline players are going to be absolutely blown away, and this will be the first "all offline" "pack" ever.

[HundertzehnGustav]

re. most the things you mention above: As is proper, we are waayyyy ahead of you already.

this modding community splitting up shit is getting on my nerves.
has been
ever since that AAA UI 1.2 or so.
never said much about it, as i saw no way my thoughts could lead to something useful.
as i did not see a universal solution on how to get all these mods, and their users, under one bonnet, hassle free

Today i just had to let it out.
could not stand it any more... have been reading the trouble reports, the "it will never be compatible" and other stuff for too long.

so if i understand you correctly... The UP team is a mere few steps away to make something like that happen.
please let me buy you a case of beer.
that sentence
has saved my day.

Thanks.
my most sincere thanks.
take your time.
just KNOWING there are smarter people than me tackling this lets me sleep quietly.

[Vampire_pilot]

2) We are going to make a no-holds-barred, no online considerations alowed, no punches pulled, highly moddable, dedicated pack for use by offline players only, using the archives of the online pack as a common starting ground. This is going to be seperate from the SAS Modact. It is a whole new thing, and you will require UP3 for it to work.

cool. This sounds like the good old UP2.01 days... LOL
isn't that what we had in principle? I am looking forward to that.

[DaveP63]

Fantastic 

[Slink]

Thank CirX for that! I was also beginning to get desperate with all this after trying to adapt to the constant changes with no apparent end in sight.
Think you just saved more than my day, rather my faith in the future of IL2, if it can then still be called that...
... not UACS by any chance? Smells like Nirvana to me...