The redesign of the 104 was tried several times, but never was chosen (as the Lancer).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_CL-1200The Italians enlarged the 104's wings with the S model, which was by far the most capable Starfighter. The C model saw some use in Nam as escorts for 105s, and an old friend of mine flew his first of 3 tours in them in 65-66 (or therabouts) followed by tours in the 105D and F-4D. They never got to fight though, as the idiotic "rules of engagement" prevented them from using the 104s ONLY advantage - energy (speed). It was designed for the energy fight where you use a speed advantage in slashing attacks and disengage before the enemy can turn onto u (basically - actually a bit more to it than that). He had some neat tales of flying the starfighter, and said it was the most "fun" of any of hte many types he flew (including the F-86F), whatever that meant.
The 104s had to stay close to the 105s since they were forbidden to go out and hunt Migs at high speed. He even got hit by a 37mm AA in the belly and barely made it home in a 104.
On several occasions on both that tour and a later one in F-4Ds, assorted types of Migs would literally fly formation with them as close as a quarter mile, and they could not get permission to attack, which the Migs knew of course. For a time in the 60s, they could only fight AFTER they were fired upon
. We all know how idiotic that is in air combat. Then the Migs would break away, and the 104s never got much of a chance to fight-pursuit was forbidden. So its advantages as a pure fighter were squandered by idiotic leadership and political circumstances.
The Pakistani AF used its small number of 104s in both the 65 and 71 wars, but they did not fair too well against Mig-21s, and I haven't found alot of info on this, but there was no speed advantage to speak of over the 21. Not much info on that.
I believe Kelly Johnson totally misinterpreted the info he got from pilots over Korea about what htey needed the most. He kept hearing about the Mig advantage in the vertical so he emphasized speed and energy to the cost of all else, except firepower. The Vulcan 20mm was also the result of Korea.
An interesting debate I just found on this subject:
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=38600Does the F-4E in game have the leading edge slats in the FM? That and the Vulcan 20mm, along with the AIM-9D gave it increased performance (later F-Js got them to post war). F-4s did very well against all the Migs in Nam, but it was often a close thing. The 2.5 to 1 kill loss ratio of U.S. fighters in the 60s was more than doubled in 72 in the USAF/USN's favor, but one must keep in mind that many of these were against strike planes on attack misns that woud be at a disadvantage. Kills were lost due to lack of guns and limited AIM-9Bs, and especially early model AIM-7s. Though the F-8 was known as the gun fighter, most of its kills were actually scored with AIM-9s or a combo of AIM-9s and 20mm. Very few gun kills only (wish I could find the list).
Any evaluation of these planes must be considered in the historical context.
Historically the F-4 has been more than a match for the Mig-21, but it has changed according to the circumstances of the times. In 72, the USAF/USN were allowed to take off the gloves, plus the early predecessors of "Red Flag" and "Top Gun" had given more dogfight training to pilots, they had more planes with guns, and the missles were better, all of them. The mid east has its own circumstances, and the IAF has rarely had the negating political interference most other air forces suffer from. Performance alone rarely decides the outcome, though it would be fun to experiment with different scenarios.
I think that a carefully planned series of close in knife fights between F-4s and Mig-21s of various marks would probably bear out the same conclusions in this sim. Then change the circumstances, ranges and rules of engagement, and armament. Ill go home now.
EDIT: I discovered that the score was 2 to 1 in favor of the 21 in the 71 indo pak war against the 104 (it seems) and that in 67, 8 104s from Taiwan engaged 8 Chinese Mig-19s, with the same score.
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Topic: Mirage III (Read 56819 times)
