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[CWMV]

The worlds three highest scoring aces cant be wrong!
Hartmann-all kills in 109 total 352
Barkhorn-total 301. In January '45 transferred to DoR in a D-9, yet he preferred the 109G.
Rall-total 275, flew the 109 from France to the fall of Berlin. Preferred the 109 to the 190.
So between three guys you have just short of 1000 kills nearly exclusively in one type of aircraft. Impressive!

off topic I suppose, but does anyone have the figures for FW 190 and BF 109 lost in combat?

[HundertzehnGustav]

could be...

the damn thing flew from when? 34? 36? to 45, and its later variants kept on flying for at least five more years.
not that they shot down a lot of things postwar... no? israel vs egypt and stuff...

but now go, and get all that intel (facts! no rumours... this aint no kindergarden type of question) in one place...
only for the 109 and variants.
the answer to that does not exist.

now. go, and take... the mustang.
flew first... when? 42? kept on shooting down planes until when? 1960 in middle america? football war? By how many countries?
So now exactly How many Planes were shot down by a Mustang of some sort? Do we count the A-36 variant as a Mustang too? or not?
the answer to that does not exist either i guess.


Questions like these... make me shake my head.

[Wildchild]

Sory about FM attack, it just doesnt seem to fit the description that WW2 pilots recall it as. 

P-51 is a pig with 100% fuel, because it was designed as long-range escort fighter, take only 50%. The Mustang was never a good dogfighter but hey, it's not the Jug Keep the speed high and you can survive in dogfight against anything (my favourite game is dogfighting against Zero at tree level. Yo-yo and lag-pursuit are the key to win). The low speed characteristics are indeed worse than other fighters, but on the other hand you have a very effective rudder. Use it to effect.
The only thing where P-51 doesn't shine is its climb rate. Fighting against AI 109 is sometimes quite frustrating.

If the top speed of the mustang is 430, i still dont quite understand why it cannot outclimb the ME-109. An i thought, according to WW2 pilots, that the P-51 was THE fighter of WW2... or am i wrong?

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-51_Mustang

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Luftwaffe Experten were confident that they could out-manoeuvre the P-51 in a dogfight.
Kurt Bühligen, the third-highest scoring German fighter pilot of the Second World War on the Western Front,
with 112 victories, later recalled that "We would out-turn the P-51 and the other American fighters, with the (Bf)109 or the (Fw)190.
Their turn rate was about the same. The P-51 was faster than us but our munitions and cannon were better."[16]
Robert S. Johnson, the second-highest scoring U.S. fighter pilot in European theatre flew the P-47 against German fighters.
Johnson pointed out: "Generally speaking, I’d say the best (Focke-Wulf) 190s and the P-51 were very close in performance;
the difference was probably in the pilot in these combats."[17]


I have tried dogfighting in both aircraft at low, medium and high altitude, and every time the FW comes out on top for some reason, AI or not...

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Usually Luftwaffe pilots attempted to avoid U.S. fighters by massing in huge numbers well in front of the bombers,
attacking in a single pass, then breaking off the attack, allowing escorting fighters little time to react.
The need to inflict heavy casualties on the American bombers was now more pressing than ever.
To do this, the German fighters needed to carry very heavy armament.
The weight of this armament decreased performance to the point where their aircraft were sitting ducks if caught by the P-51s,
likely to appear in large numbers anywhere over Germany. The Luftwaffe answer was the Gefechtsverband (battle formation).
It consisted of a Sturmgruppe of heavily armed and armoured Fw 190s escorted by two Begleitgruppen of light fighters, often Bf 109Gs,
whose task was to keep the Mustangs away from the Fw 190s attacking the bombers.
This scheme was excellent in theory but difficult to apply in practice. The massive German formation took a long time to assemble and was difficult to manoeuvre.
It was often intercepted by the escorting P-51s and broken before reaching the bombers.
But when the Sturmgruppe worked, the effects were devastating.
With their engines and cockpits heavily armoured, the Fw 190s attacked from astern and gun camera films show that these attacks were often pressed to within 100 yds.[18]



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While not always successful in avoiding contact with the escort (as the tremendous loss of German pilots in the spring of 1944 indicates),
the threat of mass attacks, and later the "company front" (eight abreast) assaults by armored Sturmgruppe Fw 190s,
brought an urgency to attacking the Luftwaffe wherever it could be found.
The P-51, particularly with the advent of the K-14 gunsight and the development of "Clobber Colleges" for the in-theater training of fighter pilots in fall 1944,
was a decisive element in Allied countermeasures against the Jagdverbände.

Beginning in late February 1944, 8th Air Force fighter units began systematic strafing attacks on German airfields that picked up in frequency and intensity throughout the spring,
with the objective of gaining air supremacy over the Normandy battlefield. In general, these were conducted by units returning from escort missions,
but beginning in March, many groups also were assigned airfield attacks instead of bomber support.
On 15 April, VIII FC began Operation Jackpot, attacks on specific Luftwaffe fighter airfields, and on 21 May, these attacks were expanded to include railways, locomotives,
and rolling stock used by the Germans to transport materiel and troops, in missions dubbed "Chattanooga".[19]
The P-51 also excelled at this mission, although losses were much higher on strafing missions than in air-to-air combat,
partially because, like other fighters using liquid-cooled engines, the Mustang's coolant system could be punctured by small arms hits, even from a single bullet.


I have had that also happen when a single round in your motor could kill your mustang. She doesnt like head on passes :/

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Reichmarshal Hermann Göring, commander of the German Luftwaffe during the war, was quoted as saying, "When I saw Mustangs over Berlin, I knew the jig was up."[20]

I had to throw that in

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Chief Naval Test Pilot and C.O. Captured Enemy Aircraft Flight Capt. Eric Brown, CBE, DSC, AFC, RN, tested the Mustang in RAE Farnborough, and noted:
"The Mustang was a good fighter and the best escort due to its incredible range, make no mistake about it. It was also the best American dogfighter.

But the laminar flow wing fitted to the Mustang could be a little tricky. It could not by any means out-turn a Spitfire. No way.
It had a good rate-of-roll, better than the Spitfire, so I would say the plusses to the Spitfire and the Mustang just about equate.
If I were in a dogfight, I’d prefer to be flying the Spitfire. The problem was I wouldn’t like to be in a dogfight near Berlin,
because I could never get home to Britain in a Spitfire!"[27]


After reading that stand point, I do suppose that the Mustang FM is correct.

P-51:

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Performance

Maximum speed: 437 mph at 25,000 ft
Cruise speed: 362 mph
Stall speed: 100 mph
Range: 1,650 mi with external tanks
Service ceiling: 41,900 ft
Rate of climb: 3,200 ft/min
Wing loading: 39 lb/ft²
Power/mass: 0.18 hp/lb
Lift-to-drag ratio: 14.6
Recommended Mach limit 0.8

Bf-109:

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Performance

Maximum speed: 398 mph at 20,669 ft
Cruise speed: 365 mph at 19,680 ft
Range: 528 mi (621 mi) with droptank
Service ceiling: 39,370 ft
Rate of climb: 3,345 ft/min
Wing loading: 40 lb/ft²
Power/mass: 0.21 hp/lb

My apologies

P.S. This is not a rant, its just not very many people have read this, so this is extra information

[Phas3e]

Georing didnt see Mustangs, he saw escort fighters which happened to be Mustangs.

IIRC the Hellcat was the 'Ace maker' of the US types, and scored higher than the mustang

[Phas3e]

but now go, and get all that intel (facts! no rumours... this aint no kindergarden type of question) in one place...

This is about the biggest Kindergarten question I have hever heard..

[HundertzehnGustav]

LOL Wildchild

claiming one and one only fighter to be the überroxmybox best (of any sort)... for people that have not been into this thing very deep or very long, for this lesson becomes clear after a few years spent around Books, Sims, and Museums.

I always say: the right tool for the right job. And for "fighters" there are many, many different kinds of Jobs.
Even if the ultimate goal was to take away enemy fighting potential of some sort.

109 B to Me-163...
i-15 and Yak-3...
P-35 and P-80...
Gladdie and SpitXIV

all designed to shoot at other planes.
Its like comparing cars. Not "Nascar vs Formula1 vs Rallye".
Its like comparing Chevies, Volkswagens and Suzukies.
None is best.

When talking about the Machines, would say, and sign this statement:
There.Is.No.Best.Fighter

When talking about the past, especially conflicts, i would say this:
We.will.NEVER.know.the.Truth.

Phase:
+1

[Ala13_ManOWar]

If the top speed of the mustang is 430, i still dont quite understand why it cannot outclimb the ME-109. An i thought, according to WW2 pilots, that the P-51 was THE fighter of WW2... or am i wrong?

Mate, climbing ability depends only in power excess and nothing more, not top speed, not wing load or lift capacity, any real pilot around here can tell you that. Talking about power excess 109 was the king during all the war, only being reached for a while in first 43's G-6, rest of 109 was always the best climber of its time.

About if P-51 was THE fighter, as you say, that depends on who write the history . Always history is written by winners, so they are the best because they win, but OneVsOne (and not outnumbering enemy by 30:1) with a good pilot in every aircraft 109 has no disavantage against P-51, in fact it was better in some aspects. P-51 had its better at really high altitude (>7k, 8k, 9k m...), 109 was better in lower altitudes (<7k m)  but it wasn't bad at high altitude like radial engined 190. AND, you must take in count that's talking of G series, but late G series and K model were far beter aircraft than standard P-51D, only there was very few amounts of them to fight.

I think it was Piet who posted a conversation he had with a veteran luftwaffe pilot he met time ago, and he clearly says their aircrafts wasn't bad at all, only they were outnumbered.

S!

[santobr]

Yes, be outnumbered is the key.
The Allies achieved victory by strategy, not because they were the best machines.
Hitler thought the Germans were invincible and underestimated the Allies, this was his biggest mistake.


santobr.