Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[SAS~CirX]

I have a problem with this plane's FM. I did say that with DBW, I am happy to edit stock flyables. If this mean a re-encryption of buttons that can be done too.

So, while waiting for the packing of the mapmods, I carry on with cockpit repaints. DOing the Ta152H, the long winged one, I was flying it an dremembered why I stopped flying it a while ago already in a bit of disgust. The FM.

Now, I am not talking about it's performance here. The speed and climb and such.

What I am talking about is it's behaviour. It seems to me, it flicks and stalls just as easily as the FW190A (which is also suspiciously tempramental in this game). It seems to me, with that engine and  those glider like wings, it should turn at low altitude as if it is mounted on rails. Indeed, all accounts I ever read about it talks about it's superb handling.

So I am asking, what are your opinions. SHould this beast be so finiky that if you pull a tight turn it immediately flips over? (and for that matter, should the FW 190's? all planes that were famous for their forgiving handling, long stall warnings and superior behaviour). The Ta152H looks to me like an acrobatic's rated glider with a pole racing engine in. How do you stall that? It should just about land like a chopper and take off like a bird. Instead this Ta seems to have about as much lift as a regular 190.

Remember, I am not talking about performance stats here, I am talking about the way the plane moves.

[SAS~CirX]

I think if we do this, we do it in the open. There are lots of nifty FM guys here, so I ask for volunteers. Do us a new 190 and ta152 set please, so these planes can come into their own.

And I will put those out for DBW users here to comment on, and when most are happy, we put them in official.

And for that matter, if there are other guys here who find similar type flaws in other planes (but please do not come fucking graph-slinging here), that is worth discussing, lets talk about it.

I am an offliner, and I would like the planes I fly to exhibit the characteristics they are known for. And I do believe, in these 10 year old stock FM's, there is a little room for improvement. What does it help I spend months putting together the finest version of IL2 ever seen in DBW, if in it, a late model pover-weight, obsolete design 109 is gentler to handle than a 190, or even a P51.

I dont think overboard changes is neccesary, but I think we offliners are long overdue for this discussion.

[Vampire_pilot]

actually... i used to play the Ta-152H a lot. and I remember loving the turn and burn that was possible with it. i do think it is not quite as snappy as the 190 but by far not the uber plane as it is described by pilot accounts when it comes to turning.

there are actually two FMs around in the current buttons. i do not kow how they differ actually. I remember someone long ago already playing around with the FM....

[S.H.]

(...) a late model pover-weight, obsolete design 109 is gentler to handle than a 190, or even a P51. (...)

I dont think overboard changes is neccesary, but I think we offliners are long overdue for this discussion.

I agree, this sounds a bit fishy. I'm no expert/pilot, but I find the 190 A quite unstable. Was it the case in real life? I known it is heavy, high wing load, etc, but still... Germans really knew how to design planes, and I don't think it was a pushed design like the late 109 G/K. I read those were hard to fly, and there were casualties in accidents (even in take off / landing). All in all, I find the late 109 way too easy, and the 190 A a bit too hard (just my opinion). Dunno about the 190 D.

By the way, DBW is wonderful partly for that : we could have tuned FMs without disturbing onliners  . Thanks!

[Thunda]

Yeah- I agree too. Everything I have ever read about the Ta152H describes an aircraft of supreme stability and handling. As you point out, CirX, you just have to look at those wings and know what power was available  to understand how wrong the flight model is. I think the only problem would be the temptation to make it too uber! It obviously wont have the 'flickability' of the A series, but should be incredibly stable and powerful.

I also agree on the overmodeled instability of the A series- ok, short wings, but it seems to stall out sooo easily- same with the D- and Im sure we would of heard of it being an unpopular aircraft with a high accident rate if this had been the case.

[Borsch]

My humble opinion: since DBW is offline, everybody can fly any FM that he/she enjoys. As long as it is optional, and as  long as a small vocal pressure group does not force their FM on entire DBW userbase.

More specifically, I think that FW190 is already made in such a way that the "butcher bird" name is justified. In the hands of a good pilot it is already deadly,deadly,deadly. I personally love its character the way its portrayed in IL2- speeeeed and unbelievable rolling ability. I do not long for it to be "a better turner'burner" (besides, in high speed dives it turns very nicely indeed- another FW IL2 character trait).

One analogy that I am afraid of is Pro Evolution Soccer, where people would boost ratings of their favourite players and end up with blandness- any player can now play the function of any other player.
Yes, flying Spit is far easier than learning the FW/TA, but I would hate for FW to be "more Spit like", or "more bf109 like". The reason I cant get enough of IL2 is diversity and character of its planes.

Yes, IL2 FM is little primitive compared to Rise of Flight, but its not because of what (say) FW can do relative to Bf or P51. Its because how ALL of the planes behave- no groundloop effect on landings, etc, etc, etc.

[Boelcke]

Some things i´ve found in books about the Fw 190 or Ta 152 H:

Karl Borris (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/borris.html) from II./JG 26 who flew the Fw 190A1 first with his unit and at the test center at Rechlin, said that the Fw 190 A1 could nearly turn like the Spitfire but was faster (at this time i think he compared it with the Spit V). Source: Peter Rodeike, Fw190 A, D und Ta 152.

Al Deere wrote in his book "nine lives" that the German pilots were much more confident when flying the Fw 190 A. With the 109´s they always made one pass and away, but with the Fw 190 A they often  beagn to turn with the Spits.

Willi Reschke wrote in his account of JG 301/302 "Wilde Sau", that he was able to outturn a RAF Tempest with his Ta 152 H at low level at the end of the war. And to force the Tempest down.

[Thunda]

Yeah- well known that the 190A's could out climb and turn Spit V's. Just look at the RAF's biggest air battle ever- the Dieppe raid in '42. The Spit V's were at a real disadvantage and RAF losses that day compared to the Luftwaffes speak for themselves (88 RAF fighters lost, 44 Spits against 48 Luftwaffe a/c of all types- including 28 Do217's!). However, the introduction of the MkIX changed all that with the 2 stage blower and was significantly better than all the remaining A series marks for the rest of the war in the climb- remember, the BMW801 was never good at altitude. I cant remember which RAF pilot said it, but I remember reading one veteran talking about his first combat with a 190A on the channel front in his newly issued MkIX seeing the suprise on the face of the 190 pilot as he climbed past him!

Also, I believe one of the reasons the clipped wing Spits were introduced was in an attempt to match the superior roll rate of the 'A'.

So as far as flight models go, something between a Spit MkV and MkIX would be realistic as far as climbing.

[Boelcke]

I was more reflecting on the turning ability of the Fw and the Ta 152. It´s totaly opposite to the Fw in the game. In Il2 the Fw 190 A is more a b&z plane.

[Screwball]

Frankly, I've got to say that I think it's a brilliant idea to put out a call for new FMs from people who love those aircraft and are trying to portray the spirit of each plane. 'Feel' is surely the holy grail, and this seems like a bold and positive move to get to it - woop woop 

As for 'it's offline so everyone should just use their own fave'...to me this doesn't seem coherent with the rest of the DBW approach. I'm pretty sure that a holistic update for everyone to be able to enjoy more lovingly crafted, more realistic feeling aircraft is really the only way to go. You can always swap out an FM if you particularly dislike it - but it doesn't seem likely that an FM by someone who really cares will be that dislikeable It then also gives a solid base for mission designers etc. Surely that part of the whole raison d'etre of DBW?

Screwy

ps. +1 for the Mosquito getting a look - she doesn't feel quite right to me either 

[slipper]

Didn't someone make a new slot for the Ta-152 ? i think it was called Ta-152H-0 to distinguish it from the one in game. It was a while ago, and i think with a few updates it is no longer working.

I remember it being very good you could get fast at 13 000 m +, unlike the stock one which seems very sluggish at altitude, no better than a stock Fw190, which seems to defeat the purpose of a high altitude fighter.

Anything that changes this for the stock Ta 152H-1 in DBW gets my vote.

regards all slipper

[Knochenlutscher]

What we might consider, but is always forgotten, when talking about the Ta 152 H-1 behavior is that we have historical accounts on "field modifications" from the pilots who flew a bird that was completely different to that, what it was meant to be, our in game high-alt fighter. Olegs version is the proposed RLM version, which was never really used in this role, only in Rechlin.
It could against all odds turn like a charm in low alt (field Mod. without GM-1).

In it's plans it was proposed a "high-performance fighter" (Hochleistungs-Jäger) for high altitudes with MW-50 & GM-1 installed. Test and V-Muster had them installed, but when it comes to combat records, you step over the fact that ground personnel stripped GM-1 systems off, to save weight and to get more out of the bird comparing the field situation, as the bird couldn't be used in the proposed manner, under that late war situation. I remember I've read they had no GM-1, which actually gave them a save weight of ~350 kg?, I don't know much about physics, but I'm sure it must get better.

We could make a field version with no GM-1=less weight and see if this helps, but I think the worm is somewhere else? Or what you think?