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[Thunda]

Don't really know how to respond to that, Schwieger. I do think his statement has political overtones, and I had written a long post about it, but as I said initially, this isn't the forum to discuss this, so I haven't posted it. If you genuinely wish to have a conversation about this, please PM me.

[Ribs]

Mmmm "no politics from me" but a whole paragraph about the politics of the German fighting man of WWII. Interesting....

You do realize what Jagdwaffe has posted is not politics, right?

Don't really know how to respond to that, Schwieger. I do think his statement has political overtones, and I had written a long post about it, but as I said initially, this isn't the forum to discuss this, so I haven't posted it. If you genuinely wish to have a conversation about this, please PM me.

Thunda ,

I do not think that stating facts and verifiable historic incidents is being political. This topic of this thread relates to the FACT that segragation was indemic to American society at large and the USAAF in particular. But due to the courage of black americans to prove that they could fight AND die as well as any other man , these walls began to be weakened. Sometimes facts are hard to accept and don't fit into agendas and narratives. Instead of flamming posters for stating facts , perhaps you should stop "seeing" things that just are'nt there.

[Stratodog]

This topic of this thread relates to the FACT that segragation was indemic to American society at large and the USAAF in particular. But due to the courage of black americans to prove that they could fight AND die as well as any other man , these walls began to be weakened.

Herein lies the primary accomplishment of the Red Tails.  In a time when many powerful men in the USAAF openly proclaimed that Black men could not even be taught to fly planes, much less be effective fighter pilots, they proved that they could do the job as well as anyone.  Furthermore, during the postwar years, they were at the leading edge of the "Civil Rights" movement.  This is their legacy and they did it despite getting one whole lot of crap dumped on them from all angles of society. 

[Thunda]

You are missing the point, ribs. SAS is an apolitical forum where aviation and flight sim enthusiasts from all over the world come together to discuss their interests.
Stating 'facts' about individual deaths is one highly emotive subject for another forum. Claiming that the whole German army and airforce of WWII.  Had no politics is another, and finishing it off with "I know it happened on both sides during the war, just more on the allied side at the end" is not only incorrect and offensive, but poitical. This thread started about whether members were going to see a film, digressed into the capabilities of the P51, and then suddenly we have a totally unrelated 'fact' about the death of a german airman,murdered at the hands of some evil allied gunners. Sorry, but that statement, whilst it may be a fact, is also political. I'm mearly asking to keep politics out of the discussion.

[BT~Tarik]

This statement
"murdered at the hands of some evil allied gunners"
is IMO not political, it has nothing to do with any party, nor communism or nazism or anything. The term "Allied" is IMO not political 

[HundertzehnGustav]

gerissene rolle a'aight... no disagreement there.

but how many times has it been done in a merlin mustang? the fact that one is depicted falls into the "propaganda" category to me... and the way it is depicted with the 109 not reacting at all... and getting busted like a piece o'shaft... "in your face" style...
nevermind the rest of the stuff. JG77 defending sicily, JG27 in north africa... where are the appropriate "skins"?

the train, the AAA puffs (37mm? with näherungszünder? why no shrapnel? y no damage? ) too short to be credible, the effects and explosions its all WAY overdone to my eyes.

i rather visit our local SAS Movies forum, honestly.

[Thunda]

This is what I meant- the reason we can have aircraft in this sim with the 'hakencreuz'on the tail is that we are not political and do not attach any political meaning to it- thank goodness.
I'm not 'flaming' anybody, I just asked, politely, to keep any political statements out of it.
And when I said "murdered by evil allied gunners" I was being ironic, as that was how the anecdote was being put across- an innocent man, murdered whilst attempting to surrender. Once again, I'm sure such a thing happened, just as it happened on all fronts with all forces in that terrible conflict. Let's just leave it at that.

[Bearcat]

I will look into the truth of that, Le0ne, but either way, the 332nd and the 99th pursuit sqn had very impressive records:
It earned three Distinguished Unit Citations (DUC) during World War II. The DUCs were for operations at Pantelleria and Tunisia from May 30 – June 11, 1943, Monastery Hill near Cassino from May 12–14, 1944, and for successfully fighting off German jet aircraft on March 24, 1945. The mission was the longest bomber escort mission throughout the war. The 332nd also flew missions in Sicily, Anzio, Normandy, the Rhineland, the Po Valley and Rome-Arno and others. Pilots of the 99th once set a record for destroying five enemy aircraft in less than four minutes.

Individual pilots of the 332nd Fighter Group earned approximately 1000 awards and decorations. Their missions took them to Rome-Arno, Normandy, Rhineland, Romania, Northern and Southern France, and the American Theater Campaigns. The 332nd first saw combat in February 1944. Throughout various engagements over the course of the war, the 332nd was credited with destroying at least: 112 airborne enemy aircraft, 150 aircraft on the ground, over 600 train cars, over 40 barges/boats, and a German Navy destroyer. The destruction of the Navy destroyer was the first such accomplishment of its time.
Taking out a German destroyer with .50cals is pretty amazing.......

It wasn't a destroyer destroyer .. and it was also most likely a lucky shot in the magazine. It was also done in P-47s not P-51s.. For more on that look at this thread @ 8 posts down and get as close to the horses mouth as you are going to get.

Well, a veteran of the 15th Airforces website claims it to be true:
http://www.frankambrose.com/pages/tusk.html
And so does the American Library of Congress:
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trm116.html
However, it seems it isnt true, and the 332nd actually lost 25 bombers:
"At least 25 bombers being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen over Europe during World War II were shot down by enemy aircraft, according to a new Air Force report. The report contradicts the legend that the famed black aviators never lost a plane to fire from enemy aircraft. But historian William Holton said the discovery of lost bombers doesn't tarnish the unit's record."

"It's impossible not to lose bombers," said Holton, national historian for Tuskegee Airmen Inc.  The report released March 28, 2007 was based on after-mission reports filed by both the bomber units and Tuskegee fighter groups, as well as missing air crew records and witness testimony, said Daniel Haulman, a historian at the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery. The tally includes only cases where planes were shot down by enemy aircraft, Haulman said. No one disputed the airmen lost some planes to anti-aircraft guns and other fire from the ground.
The 25 planes were shot down on five days: June 9, July 12, July 18 and July 20, 1944 and March 24, 1945, the Montgomery Advertiser reported"

Bill Holton was a member of the East Coast Chapter of Tuskegee Airmen Inc., which I am a member of.. this is true but the exact number is still debatable..   See the link below to our squad's website and visit the History page for more on that.

332nd V.F.G.

As for the film.. I saw it Friday .. it was entertaining.. IMO the script could have been better.. and there were inaccuracies as far as the German AC & even the B-17 markings. I cringed everytime the German antagonist came ion the screen.. His character was just a bit to cliche for me .. what with the evil sneer everytie he spoke.. and that scar ..  I was hoping we wouldn't see a scene of him on the ground with a monocle and a cigarette holder.. The film definitely could have been better .. but for what it was as I said .. it was entertaining to me, although I must admit I was biased. I thought the effects were good .. but some of the explosions were a bit overdone ...  and that "destroyer" almost looked like a battleship to me...

the majority of viewers wont know a 109 from a mustang or wont even have heard of an Me262, we are the 1% who care but arent worth listening to, the yellow markings will be the film makers way to tell the audience who the bad guys are.
No matter how easy it would have been to make accurate paintschemes this is an action movie, people want to see brightly coloured planes blowing up.

I agree. We are the only ones who would even notice this. I remember seeing in the first movie they had stock footage of a P-51 crashing .. it was obvious it was stock footage because the markings were totally different.. At least n this one they were able to get 109s tatg looked like the 109s they faced.. instead of the Spanish built ones that didnt have the DB engines..

Check here http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-9-2012/george-lucas to see an interesting interview with George Lucas.  Apparently, realism was not one of the main motivating factors during the movie.  He wanted it to be something like a war movie that would have been made in the USA in the 1940s - something like "Flying Leathernecks" with John Wayne.   

As far as not losing a bomber, that would be difficult to prove.  Even the 332nd commander, Benjamin Davis said that he privately questioned weather it was true, "But so many people have said it that a lot of people have come to believe it." 

I think it's missing the point to concentrate on the bomber loss thing.  The main accomplishment of the Tuskegee Airmen was that they broke through the barriers of overt racism and proved that they could be just as effective combat pilots as men of any other race.  They were pioneers in the modern Civil Rights movement in the USA.

True.. and actually the Freeman Field mutiny was just as important to the nation as a whole in the long run as the lives that saved.

You don't decide nothing in a dogfight You think, you're dead. Its all reaction. The problem for this manuver for the P-51 is that although it can snap stall, recovery takes to much time. No good in a dogfight. 109 will come and blow you from sky.. but, the P-51 relies on superior numbers to protect each other and get the job done.

I recall seeing an American pilot on dogfights recounting doing that exact move.. I agree with you though .. you just do.. and we have to remember that the tactile feel of being "in the pit" with gravity as far as maneuvering the aircraft .. cannot be discounted yet is easily overlooked by us armchair pilots ..

[Thunda]

Thanks for the comments and the links, Bearcat. Very interesting reading.
The film isn't out yet in the UK yet, but I think I will go and see it when it opens anyway, despite its obvious shortcomings. It may be mainly CGI, but as you say, at least we don't have to watch the Spanish 'buchon' masquerading as a 109 a la ' Battle of Britain '!!!

[gbollin]

I watched this movie today. It reminded of old time WW2 movies made during or shortly after the war. In fact it was sort like a movie I watched called Fighter Group
based on the 4th Fighter Group starring Robert Stack They P-46D's in the Movie.
I thought Red Tails was a good movie and enjoyed it.

[Schwieger]

As for the destroyer... did it resemble KGV to anyone else?

[Pursuivant]

Actually this move is possible, but maybe not that spectacular. The thing is to put left rudder full, then Stick full back. The plane will highspeed stall and move left due to the rudder. Immediately after that push the stick forward and put right rudder full to recover.

Sounds like a "wingover" maneuver to me (http://www.iac.org/begin/figures.html). It's tricky to pull off without stalling or going into a spin, but it's a good way to lose a lot of speed and change direction fast.

It might also be similar to the historical Immelmann maneuver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WW1Immelmann.png)