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[C6_Claymore]

 

So now (before leaving) the question is; are the links for downloading the last version of cod and classfiles are the right ones in the first post... or not ?

I believe they are... 

An now bye bye, catch you in... two weeks no more I promise 

[FANATIC MODDER]

I didn't want to ruin Claymore's holiday, so I reserved this post until today. He worked so hard for us, bring us a lot of nice moments (a friend of mine came yesterday home only for trying the Fw 190 Pack - this is what joy you bring to people and oppurtunities for socializing... )that I thought I should let it go for yesterday.

Ouf...what is left:

 - In A-3 1.32 ata, A-3 1.42 ata and A-5/U14 have double loadouts.

-  F-8 has no belly droptank. Sorry, this is my mistake, I should mentioned it in an earlier post.

- The desert skins for the A-4, A-5, F-1, F-2, F-3, G-1, G-2 & G-3 have the wrong, old style A-3 exchaust stacks. (Most of them are based on a historical A-3/U3/Trop skin that is around for quite some time)

- The summer skins for the A-3 1.42 ata (more of it later), A-6/R8, A-8/R11, F-8. F-8 late, F-8/U1 and G-8 have the wrong, old style A-3 exchaust stacks.

- The Hakencross is not there for some reason in G-1.

- The F-8 (since there is now a F-8 late) should really have the old style canopy. Late canopies from July-August 1944, F-8 introduction March 1944.

- D-9/R5 should have the ETC 501 rack, instead of the ETC 504. A newer style canopy would have been more typical. ETC 504 could carry only a droptank.

=================================================================================================================================

This was all I could find about claymore's work, I tried to dig out as much as I could, we all know how perfectionist claymore is, trying to have everything right in every detail.

Now the important talk about FMs...I tried and tested as much my time permitted yesterday:

BMW 801D-2, 1.32 ata with B4 fuel, 1.42 ata with C3 fuel, "A-4" style exchausts and MANUALLY activated Erhohte L (= ultra rich mix of fuel, used as WEP)

- A-3 1.42 ata : Retrofitted with the Erhohte L, with the "A-4" style exchausts.

- A-5 1.58 ata: I have no idea of the mods that allowed more boost.

- A-5 1.65 ata: some A-5s tested the MW50, I don't know if it was ever operational.

- A-6/7 used the same engines with A-4/5 (always C3 fuel).

- A-8: As we have it in UP 3.0/DBW, it should use the same power settings as before, but with an extra 118lt of fuel. Of course heavier than the A-6/7, rare but historical. The FM we have seems to match (but I have no idea if indeed there is extra fuel).

- A-8 1.65 ata, WITH MW50. As we have it is underpowered and generally wrong.

- A-8 with MW50 and B4 fuel: Possibly the worst combination, but historical when C3 was not available.

- A-9: Same comments as in A-8.

- D-9 Early: with 1.42 ata, I think is not historical and should be removed.

- FW_190D9orig: with 1.5 ata and no MW50, a typical early production (but should have the old style canopy) FM seems ok.

- Fw-190D-9: with 1.7 ata, a typical D-9 with B4 fuel (as most D-9s). FM ok.

- FW_190D-9L_orig: with 1.8 ata, C3 fuel. FM ok.

- Fw-190D-9_Late: too much power I believe, it makes sense as a seperate variant with the Ta 152 tail and the EZ 42 gunsight.

- FW-190D-9R5: should have the same power settings as the FW_190D-9L_orig.

=================================================================================================================================


Ta 152 - all of them are generally underpowered, especially the -H models. Try the D-9 late and then jump into them, the difference is too obvious.

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And a few more things ....

Late style canopy standard in A-8 from January 1945 (I found that in an old magazine, please verify).

F-8/9 & G-8, usually no MW50 but the extra 118lt fuel tank.

Trop versions: A-3/4/5 & F-2.

A-5 were used in battle with a 2 stage supercharger (BMW 801TU engine?) and a scoop in the place of the bulge (in fact they were no A-5 anymore). H. Graf flew one of these. Why this didn't go further, is a mystery.

GM1 on A-8/9 & G-8 models. In G-8 was rare, but I was surprised that it even existed. But in -A models it was not, of course more rare than MW50, but many defence reich units seem to have it.

=================================================================================================================================

What is missed:

The only version I can think of is the A-8/R8 (sturmbock), in preference with GM1.

=================================================================================================================================

Wing drop tanks:

A lot of confusion and many arrangements, different tanks & racks in the F-8/9 & -8 models that the ones we are offered by Claymore (the ones called Westerflug) but I don't think is worth the effort to work on them.

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Question: What we have a D-13 in other sources is described as D-12. What do you know about that? Can you give me timeframes about the late D-11 to 15 variants?

Ouf...that's all that came from my research.

[Mick]

... I know Clay, I am sure he took his laptop with him ... just to monitor the FW/Ta thread ... 

 ... so your questions will serve as holiday homework, well sort of ... otherwise it will take him quite some time to catch up once he is back ... 

[HundertzehnGustav]

one FW maniac meets the other...
Claymore and the Fanatic...

[CWMV]

Fanatic Modder, did you actually open up the FM of each aircraft and find that they are in fact underpowered, or is it more of a "feeling"

[FANATIC MODDER]

Underpowered yes, I am talking about the Ta 152s. It's feeling, but I checked the instruments also, so if the reading is correct they are underpowered but not by much. I admit it's difficult to say what exactly is wrong 'cause the -H is so different from the 190s. Possibly just a slight ata correction would do, based on the FW_190D-9L_orig power setting. I got the idea that something is wrong way back in time when I was chasing in a mission a pair of Yak-9Us and I had to climb over 6000m to reach them! (as usual, the stock AI pilots endelessly climbed to ...heaven and the VK-107s never had overheating problems!) I should check that again (permitted time).

I am more sure about in the -C model, there is no -2nd stage supercharger as it should be in the DB603L/LA models (and with 190D-14 too, D-15 had the DB 603G).

Now about the others, I cannot say they are underpowered, apart the A-8/9 1.65 that should have MW 50 (but without MW 50, their current power settings are propably correct). Late D-9 I think has a bit too much power. It's more about the feeling, to correct the Erhohte L instead of automated boost settings (Claymore must check, there should be somewhere a Erhohte button in the console to verify that was manually activated).

one FW maniac meets the other...
Claymore and the Fanatic...

I am generally maniac with planes... ...since I was a bady.
I look the Fw 190 with sympathy because it was the more "porked" plane in IL-2...possibly that it shows.

[Mad026]

Is this mod works with 4.101 DBW 1.71?

[Gumpy]

That's what I have it installed in and it works fine Mad026.

[Mad026]

Thanks for the help gumpy !!

[FANATIC MODDER]

Correction of some mistakes I made previously:

Jumo 213A never used C3 fuel, ONLY B4 fuel. Single stage supercharger

Jumo 213EB used C3 fuel instead. Two stage supercharger

Jumo 213E-1 used B4 fuel. Two stage supercharger

Jumo 213F-1 used B4 fuel. Two stage supercharger. Planned successor of -A engines.

Normal (Non MW50) ata for all 213s : 1.47


Take off power of 213A: 1776 hp (1300KW), 2100hp with MW50

Take off power of 213E-1: 1750 hp (1290KW), 2050hp with MW50

Take off power of 213EB: 1870 hp (1370KW),  2242hp with MW50

Take off power of 213F-1: Confusion

Power at alt. : the -E models a vast improvement over the -A models but I was not able to find reliable data yet (all these stupid anti-piracy laws "killed" our potential sources...)

Engines & Airframes match:

Fw 190D-9 - Jumo 213A with and without MW50

Fw 190D-11 - Jumo 213E-1 & F (The prototype with 213F, but there is confusion about the rest of the airframes)

Fw 190D-12 - Jumo 213E-1 with MW50

Fw 190D-13 - Jumo 213EB or F with MW50, possibly both

-----------------------------------------------------

Ta 152B/H-0 - Jumo 213E-1, confusion over MW50 or GM1, a guess is that as test aircraft tried both

Ta 152H-1 - Jumo 213E-1 & Jumo 213EB with GM1

Conclusions:

All D-9s:

The crack in the performance curve that exists at around 3000m should be eliminated.

D-9 Early: Should be deleted, not historical

FW_190D9orig: A non-MW50 D-9 with 1.47 ata.

Fw-190D-9 & FW_190D-9L_orig: Slight differences between the 2, one is of them is surplus, after a bit of thought I believe the slight extra of MW50 in  FW_190D-9L_orig is more plausible, but offer it as D-9, not D-9 late.

Fw-190D-9_Late: too much power I believe, should have same settings as FW_190D-9L_orig. It makes sense as a seperate variant with the Ta 152 tail, EZ 42 gunsight and R4M option (historical and used operationally)
=================================================================================================================================

All the rest (D-11/13, 152B/Hs): Should have a 2nd stage supercharger activated. Something must be revised in their FMs. A Ta 152H-1 with a 213EB & GM1 should make a huge difference compared to what we have now.

I intend to look radial 190s later.

EDIT: All the pictures and draws I 've seen of all variants after D-9 (& most D-9s) have the late-style cross, so D-9 Late, D-9/R5, D-14/15 & Ta 152H-1 should be reverted to the late style cross in their default skin.

[FANATIC MODDER]

Corrections of some mistakes, part II.

I am sorry for some wrong things I posted before.

If there is one plane that is badly documented, this is Fw 190.

Countless books about Fw 190 with countless mistakes that are replicated all over the years.

Someone is making a new book and he just copies what was written before etc.

The most horrible aspect is the data about the -A series, both performance and engine data.

Now, once for all, what I believe is historically true, connecting the puzzle from various websites, books, magazines, downloaded or found in my basement, written in 6 different languages, the older is from 1970....

total power output of BMW 801 -

C-1 rated 1560 PS

C-2 rated 1600PS or 1650PS. I have no idea which is correct.

all 801C models at 1.29 ata.

D series - the total mess

I found ratings of 1600(!), 1700, 1705, 1730 or 1770PS

I could not find any 1.32 ata, but I 've spotted 1.39 ata, as well as 1.42 ata. No 1.58 ata anywere.

Most plausible data for 1.42 ata : 1730 PS (1272KW) without Erhohte Leistung For A-4/5/6/7

Most plausible data for 1.39 ata : 1250KW (A-3 & Early A-4?)

THE MYTHS AND THE CONFUSIONS.

what is regurarly named as MW50 in English sources is what the germans called "Notleistung" for BMW radial engines, the Erhohte Leistung of IL-2.

Instead the MW50 is called "Startleistung" for all the DB 603/5 & Jumo 213 engines.

This was available from the A-8 onwards, at 1.65 ata only. Therefore, all the A-4/5/6/7/8 should have the same power settings with the A-8 having the Erhohte Leistung (or Notleistung) enabled manually for a power rating of 2000 PS. F-8 had extra fuel instead.

I have no idea whatsoever the effect of GM1 in this engine was.

TS series : 2000 PS (1470 KW) normal power setting with 2200 PS (1620 KW) with Notleistung at 1.62 ata. F-9 as F-8.

Conclusions:

So, after a few hours of research, I discovered that the "stock" UP 3.0 190s have the more realistic FM. The A-7 should be deprieved of its Notleistung and maybe the A-9 needs just a little bit more power. Alternative A-8s with no Notleistung and extra fuel or the GM1 system are an intersting idea.

Suggestions:

The A-3 & A-4 we have are very slightly slower than the A-5 & A-6. It makes sense to present a later (and far more typical) A-4 with A-5/6 performance and the later cooling slots.

Convert the A-7 sturm (that was so rare) to a more mass-produced A-8/R8 (the skin is A-8 anyway). It needs just a new FM, why not with GM1 this would make a perfect early A-8/R-8.

NOTE: I tried the planes and my test was based on the "feeling" and the instruments. DON'T count on the IL-2 compare of older versions.

[BT~Tarik]

Little bug :

In the Ta-152 H1, the wheel for the canopy turns in the wrong way...instead of forward backward it turns left right. So it crosses the side of the cockpit.


Here it is outside


and inside :


Otherwise its great, thanks a lot ! So happy to have this