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[Wing King]

Hello everybody,

First of all: I know that everyone is busy with patch 4.11, upcoming planes like the Dornier Do-17, Junkers JU188, Dewoitine D.520, DBW 1.7, UP3.1/4.0, etc. I don’t want to annoy or harass people, it is just a request. It does not have to be ready by tomorrow or next week or next month. It is simply a request to consider. It seems only a very small detail, but it does matter to me. I have no idea if it's often been suggested, but this is a request I would like to make for IL-2:

"Cheyenne" Tail Turret
The “Cheyenne” Tail Turret was an experimental tail turret developed by the United Airlines Cheyenne Modification Center and used on the one-off YB-40 number 42-5833. This turret addressed a number of issues with the original tail gun position.

While the two .50 cal machine guns were still hand held, they were now moved closer to the gunner making them easier to control. They were held in a powered copula that moved with the guns' azimuth. This gave the guns a much wider field of fire. (Other sources say that the turret was completely manually operated, I have not been able to find prove for these statements. I only found one picture of the internals of the Cheyenne tail turret. It doesn't seem like a powered turret, right?)

Cheyenne tail :
Traverse : 80 degrees to each beam.  (Meaning, from the guns pointed straight back, they would go 80 degrees to the right, or left; 10 degrees short of pointed directly to the left or right of the plane)
Elevation : 70 degrees
Depression : 40 degrees
 
Compare with the F model tail position ---
Traverse : 30 degrees to each beam
Elevation : 40 degrees
Depression : 15 degrees
http://forum.armyairforces.com/B17G-Question-on-the-Cheyenne-m208034.aspx



The perforated bar is a defroster, above which is the optical gun sight. Between the gun sight and the gunner is a thick pane of bullet resistant glass which gives the "greenish" color.





The cable controlled post and bead sight was replaced with an N-8 reflector sight that improved the gunner's accuracy. Also, a bicycle type seat was added to the position to help alleviate gunner fatigue since in previous models the gunner would have had to remain on his knees the entire time he was at his guns. The revised position also included an enlarged window area that gave the gunner a much better field of view.



The “Cheyenne” tail turret was added to the B-17G model at the United Airlines Modification Center at Cheyenne, Wyoming (and at Field Modification Centres in England). In order to avoid slowing down the main production lines many modifications were NOT implemented at the main production lines at Boeing, Douglas and Vega. Instead, completed aircraft were flown to modification centers before going overseas. By the spring of 1943, 1,600 workers were employed at the Cheyenne Modification Center with an average of six planes a day leaving Cheyenne for combat areas. After two years of operation, the center had completed modifications on 3,500 B-17’s. (Wyoming State Museum) http://www.flickr.com/photos/kensaviation/2487953543/



The “Cheyenne” tail gun mounting modifications were incorporated in the B-17G-80-BO, -45-DL, -35-VE and subsequent batches. With this installation, these B-17Gs were five inches shorter than the earlier versions. http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b17_16.html

Boeing production blocks:
43-38074/38273   Boeing B-17G-80-BO Fortress = 200
            c/n 9052/9251
43-38274/38473   Boeing B-17G-85-BO Fortress = 200
            c/n 9252/9451
43-38474/38673   Boeing B-17G-90-BO Fortress = 200
            c/n 9452/9651
43-38674/38873   Boeing B-17G-95-BO Fortress = 200
            c/n 9652/9851
43-38874/39073   Boeing B-17G-100-BO Fortress = 200
            c/n 9852/10051
43-39074/39273   Boeing B-17G-105-BO Fortress = 200
            c/n 10052/10251
43-39274/39508   Boeing B-17G-110-BO Fortress = 235
            c/n 10252/10486                    +
-------------------------------------------------------
                                 1435

Douglas production blocks:
44-6126/6250   Douglas/Long Beach B-17G-45-DL Fortress = 125
            c/n 22349/22473
44-6251/6500   Douglas/Long Beach B-17G-50-DL Fortress = 250
            c/n 22474/22723
44-6501/6625   Douglas/Long Beach B-17G-55-DL Fortress = 125
            c/n 22724/22848
44-6626/6750   Douglas/Long Beach B-17G-60-DL Fortress = 125
            c/n 22849/22973
44-6751/6875   Douglas/Long Beach B-17G-65-DL Fortress = 125
            c/n 22974/23098
44-6876/7000   Douglas/Long Beach B-17G-70-DL Fortress = 125
            c/n 23099/23223
44-83236/83360   Douglas/Long Beach B-17G-75-DL Fortress = 125
            c/n 31877/32001
44-83361/83485   Douglas/Long Beach B-17G-80-DL Fortress = 125
            c/n 32002/32126
44-83486/83585   Douglas/Long Beach B-17G-85-DL Fortress = 100
            c/n 32127/32226
44-83586/83685   Douglas/Long Beach B-17G-90-DL Fortress = 100
            c/n 32227/32326
44-83686/83863   Douglas/Long Beach B-17G-95-DL Fortress = 178
            c/n 32327/32504
44-83864/83885   Douglas/Long Beach B-17G-95-DL Fortress = 22
            c/n 32505/32526                           +
------------------------------------------------------------------
                                       1525

Lockheed-Vega production blocks:
42-97836/97935   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-35-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 7201/7300
42-97936/98035   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-40-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 7301/7400
44-8001/8100   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-45-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 7401/7500
44-8101/8200   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-50-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 7501/7600
44-8201/8300   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-55-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 7601/7700
44-8301/8400   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-60-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 7701/7800
44-8401/8500   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-65-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 7801/7900
44-8501/8600   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-70-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 7901/8000
44-8601/8700   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-75-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 8001/8100
44-8701/8800   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-80-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 8101/8200
44-8801/8900   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-85-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 8201/8300
44-8901/9000   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-90-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 8301/8400
44-85492/85591   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-95-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 8401/8500
44-85592/85691   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-100-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 8501/8600
44-85692/85791   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-105-VE Fortress = 100
            c/n 8601/8700
44-85792/85841   Lockheed/Vega B-17G-110-VE Fortress = 50
            c/n 8701/8750                       +
---------------------------------------------------------------
                                  1550

This gives a total of: Boeing 1435 + Douglas 1525 + Lockheed-Vega 1550 = 4510 B-17G’s build with the “Cheyenne” tail turret modification (according to my calculations)

If there are 3500 B-17G’s build with the modification, compared with the whole B-17G production (8680), it’s a percentage of 40,32%, and compared with the total production of the B-17 (12731) it’s a percentage of 27,49%.
If there are, according to my calculations, 4510 B-17G’s build with the modification,  compared with the whole B-17G production (8680), it’s a percentage of 51,96%, and compared with the total production of the B-17 (12731), it’s a percentage of 35,43%.

You can see in both cases that the “Cheyenne” tail turret modification clearly is represented in the production of the B-17. That’s why I think this modification deserves a place in IL-2.

(The fact that there were field modification centers in England, will certainly affect these numbers. I've read on forums that replacement turrets were sent to England, to repair damaged B-17G's. It would not surprise me if these turrets were also used to modify B-17F's, as the "Cheyenne" tail turret was much better than the old “Stinger” type tail turret. But I don’t have any info/prove for that, it’s only guesswork.)

I have no idea how to make mods, so is there someone willing to make this mod for the B-17G? I know it takes time and that it is difficult to create, but I think it's possible. I know that it’s looks pretty stupid, a very long post for a tail turret only, but I would be very gratefull if the mod is realized. Please let me know what you think and give me some feedback. Thanks in advance and my apologies for the long, long post.

Regards,
Wing King

[Pursuivant]

Seems like a simple mod. As you pointed out, it's very appropriate for late war production B-17s.

[KENZO]

+1
Nice idea!!! 

[Wing King]

Thanks for your positive replies guys! Hopefully there's a modder out there, who is willing to create this mod.

[DD_BadAim]

As for the power question, it could have a "power assist" mechanism underneath (much like power steering on a car) But I doubt it was really necessary from the looks of the thing, if it had good bearing.

[ptg]

+1 for this - simple mod?

[Jaypack44]

Agreed- The B-17 is in real need of a 3D overhaul, but this would be a nice addition, regardless! If I could handle the coding, my first project would be reworking the B-17, and creating several of the different variants it went through... (cheyenne tail, staggered/unstaggered waist windows, different waist window styles, etc.). Hopefully someone will pick this up!

[Catahoulak9]

Nice job on presenting your request Wing King. I'd love to see this too.

[Krieger51]

Bump.

[Maty12]

+1 now that makes two bombers that need new tail turrets.

[Maty12]

bump

[Catahoulak9]

Maty12 take a look at this B-17 cockpit mod. It's a much improved version of the B-17 interior tail position.
https://www.mediafire.com/download/2a6ve87kgjacx26/B-17_Cockpit_HSFX7.zip