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[CWMV]

There, I said it. Flame on.
 

But in all seriousness I cant get these things to fly worth a darn.
For example: -51D-20NA (W/30% fuel) V 190A8 (W/50% fuel). Over Crimea at any altitude between the deck and 30,000 feet. DBW 1.6 of course with a smattering of mods that pertain to neither aircraft at all.
The 190 climbs/fly's faster, turns better (but that was expected), dives better (wings rip off at ~500 mph in the rustang), and has a huge advantage in firepower (Over everything!).

The thing that gets me is how the AI respond to it. You know how the AI will just climb away from you if they know their aircraft is faster, but try to dive/run if they know your aircraft is superior? Well these 190 drivers have a lot of faith in their machines as they just go into the long, spiraling turn and totally leave me in the dust. The rustang can barely manage 210mph in the climb regardless of power/pitch, trim or radiator settings. I can follow, and sometimes match his speed but cannot overtake until 30,000+ feet and then it is a slow thing. At which point they just dive away and when I try to follow my wings rip off.
The part that gets me is the speed. I really, really thought the 51 was faster than this. The 47 is and the AI know it. Trying the same mission I have no trouble decimating 190's in the 47. The tactics the 190's use are different as they "know" I'll run them down in a climb like a home-sick eagle.

So what are you rustang jockeys doing to get her to fly at her true potential? I'm versed in the manipulation of prop pitch and engine management, but nothing I know to do in other aircraft works in this brick.

[SAS~Malone]

hahah! lol...you most certainly would have just upset a lot of 'Stang lovers, no doubt.
i'm with you, though - the P51(all D models, no real issue with A/B/C's, though) is one of the fighters i've just never felt like i've been able to fly to its true potential, considering the amount of hype around this plane.
being more at home in a Hurri, 109, 190 which i can generally fly to the max and beyond, i just keep coming horribly short in a D model Mustang. always ending up second-best, which i'm not always very keen on. 

edit: let the conversation continue freely, but NO graphs, please - lol! let's keep it verbal...

[CWMV]

Agreed.
I thought the title would get some quick responses...Im quite amazed!

[Paulo Hirth]

   With the new 2.11 FM, the FW190A have more spin/Stoll, and you can win easy with the "Porked" P-51.

[Pursuivant]

Historically, I don't think that the Mustang was ever all that great as a dogfighter compared to planes such as the Spitfire. Its strengths were excellent high altitude performance and amazing range - features that seldom come into play in your typical IL2 scenario.

Furthermore, part of its combat reputation came from the fact that P-51 pilots had numbers, (relative) experience, logistics and strategic initiative on their side. It's post-war reputation came from the fact that it was flown by many pilots of the dominant world superpower and their allies and a lot of them survived on the warbird/air racing circuits.

That's not to say that the P-51 is a bad plane, by any means; but don't believe the hype. If you want a pure low-level dogfighter, go with a clipped wing Spitfire, or, for early war scenarios a A6M2.

[Knochenlutscher]

The fast spiral climbing, combined with frequent dives is a faulty annoying AI behaviour we can't get rid or fight, till we have AI mOds.
Certs AI and DBW AI MOD help a bit as they include or stretch the pre-sequence when those late war bastards (P-51, P-47,
Gustavs or any other ride) are spotted in my gunsight. In stock game they would immediately climb like a rocket, with these  Mods they act more human, when they spotted me on their 6. Doing some maneouvering in case of trouble. But then it falls back to stock behaviour, initial fast climbs, combined with dives. The pattern is the same, always circling upwards. How annoying.
These AI Mods add nice surprise movements to the foreseeable AI movement, but at some point, AI just acts like ever and you can bet your pants. Just try to sum up where your dogfights start, then where you actually get annoyed of them from fast/unhuman climbing. Locate your alt.
The fact is this behaviour I can't recognize in our early up to some mid-war crates, curious, since it's an AI behaviour it should affect others too? There dogfights are beaten with the known forces, advantages/disadvantages, a good combination of random manoveouvers that make out exciting offline dogfights.
But I can't play late-war scenarios, this I hope will be cured in the new AI-Behavior by UP/DBW in the next patches.
I.e. early war scenarios I end up catching these bastards (choose a crate) in low, sometimes in mid-level.
You can barely end a P-51 in this alt. at least my AI doesn't do me the favour, but show me how good they climb.
You can have all advantage, but doesn't help, where in early crates fight, you get bonuses for advantages, it doesn't make any sense in late war scenarios.

As a player FM I think is alright, showing pros and cons of the crates, P-51, P-47, Gustav, Kurfürst, Spitfire, or Tempests, etc.
But as soon as AI gets seated in them, all is not worth a dime, as they all follow one particular pattern, and I can't make out the superiority of each plane they fly, it's all one pudding to me.
There's only 2 solutions for Offliners, catch them while they head on, before any specific AI -movement or disable the enemy flight in FMB, but than it's too easy. Then they are dumber than a one-day-fly.

My dream for future DBW or UP offline, play late-war dogfights in a challengable, outbalanced, depending on skills not patterns scenarios, like we can do with our early/mid crates in any combination.

[ANDYTOTHED]

in 4.11 AI actually follow the rules of physics

[DaveP63]

I have not had much success, either. I try not to fly it and usually prefer the p47.

[CWMV]

Sounds like I'm not the only one.
But come on, the A8 was a fraking tank, I've got to be doing something seriously wrong to be outclimbed by it in a 51.
Oh and I know its no dogfighter, if I want to turn and burn I grab a 109f-2.

[Stratodog]

Furthermore, part of its combat reputation came from the fact that P-51 pilots had numbers, (relative) experience, logistics and strategic initiative on their side. It's post-war reputation came from the fact that it was flown by many pilots of the dominant world superpower and their allies and a lot of them survived on the warbird/air racing circuits.

+1  and this from a P-51 fanatic

I have gotten the Fw190 A8 to dogfight with me briefly (AI flown) by having the 190 start at an advantage.  I started by shooting down the wingman while the leader 190 circles around and gets behind me then I try to out turn him (the lead 190 that's now behind me) and it's close but I can do it. 

For a really fun dogfight in a P-51, try taking on any 109 from F-4 to earlier models. They will turn hard and dogfight like mad.  But again, mainly at low altitude.

[thefruitbat]

strange, i really like the 51 and do well in it, often coming back with 4 plus kills in co-ops with my squad.

I'd rather be in a 51 vs 190's than a spit (although gen prefer a spit vs 109's), i find the 51 a real 190 killer.

Only planes that are a real problem are the D9 and K4 imo. If i meet them co E, its time to run away, and come back in better shape.

heights to avoid vs 190A8's is around 4000m to 6000m, and right on the deck. between 4000-6000m the A8 can outclimb the 51D, its ths worst height for fighting vs the 190A8

above 6000m, the 190 is meat on the table, 3000m also gives you good advantage. (with stock fm's anyway).

[SAS~Tom2]

I've flown the P-51s in all modded and stock games and while they (all versions) have gained a significant plus in the modded versions I've always been sort of dissapopinted.
The best horse for me is the P-51B or -C version. Love those and in my main "Mustang install" they also fly best with me.

I assume it is also important to consider P-51s fly best when not combatted with full fuel load, due to the Mustang-specific center of gravity.

A little off-topic, did you see that?

Mustangs a la DCS?

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3500170/

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/3500478/

Curious..