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Author Topic: mig 21 opponent  (Read 19671 times)

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vanir

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Re: mig 21 opponent
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2012, 07:43:17 PM »

The F-104 is the design contemporary to the MiG-21 but primarily industrial differences between east-west led to the F4 being the primary Fishbed contemporary between US/USSR. In terms of progression the F-104 and MiG-21 entered service almost alongside each other and have similar performance, and are both day fighters, etc.

The MiG wasn't designed for export, or as a light fighter concept in any way reminiscent of US Freedom Fighter or LFX requirements. Its design philosophy was as a main type for Frontal Aviation as opposed to PVO-Strany, which means operating from rough forward fields with easy and cheap mass production, high turnaround, low maintenance and within range of ground based Army support. The Israeli comparative report (they were the first in the west to get hold of one and flight test it), was that it was cheap and uncomplicated, performance exceeded expectation and it was the most maintenance free jet they'd ever seen up to that time.
Secondarily this aircraft type was to be distributed among satellites and later was offered for export. That's the role of major Frontal Aviation fighters. It's really all about production philosophies and resource expenditure, not aircraft type.

The US industrial philosophy was entirely different, so if the F4 was produced in the USSR as quickly as it was in the US, of which the MiG-23 is a rough contemporary (ie. of the F4E/N) then it would've been issued to PVO only, who has a much bigger "budget" to work with. The Su-15 for example is a more expensive and more refined contemporary of the MiG-21 and century series fighters, and would match up much better with an early F4 at low alt but it was issued to PVO, their national guard equivalent.


So for a technological contemporary for the MiG-21 you're really looking at the century series fighters (the MiG was in service from 1958) but for actual mission building contemporaries I agree the Mirage III and F4B/C are the best choices. Later Phantoms are inappropriate however, if you model their improved avionics. Early Phantoms with no lookdown and crappy target discrimination should be used, with missile problems and better success rates using gun pods. Anywhere near the ground or against clouds or in the direction of the sun, or in formation or during rough manoeuvres the radar on early Phantoms is just about useless in combat. Those early ones fought mostly like day fighters with really good thrust excess mostly, and just salvoed their weapons and hoped for the best. The second crewmember wound up being an observer, both crew spend all their combat time "eyes out" of the cockpit.

Israeli pilots who operated Mirage, Phantoms and Eagles said the Eagle was the first fighter you could spend time during combat with your eyes on the radar screen instead of out of the cockpit, but the other types were all old school and not very different from each other in that respect.
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vanir

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Re: mig 21 opponent
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2012, 07:56:36 PM »

It did always amaze me that the USAF issued the competition for the F-16, a lightweight, fair-weather dogfighter, when the F-5 was already in service... :-\

Great little bird.

The F-5 was tendered for the FX requirement actually, it was the Northrop YF-17 (later redesigned as the Hornet) that competed with the F-16. The other Eagle competition was the CL-1200 Lancer from Lockheed (F-104 derivative). After they failed in the bid they were simplified for the export market (if they had've won they'd have Eagle grade avionics/weapons systems).
Interestingly the F-5 wound up being used as the main aggressor fighter because its performance at low altitude is almost identical to a MiG-21, just a blind coincidence. During some of these it was discovered and publicised a surprising success rate of F-5 matched up against the mighty Eagle, 1:1 is the average but in multiple engagements, ie. 3 or more F-5 versus 2 or more Eagles the F-5 has a higher CWC/BFM success ratio.

Got some nice videos of these, bought a cool series on dvd.

edit, oh there was a variant of the F-5 that was retendered alongside the YF-17 for the LFX contract, the F-20. It was re-engined with a single F404. But the F5 was originally competition for the FX or Eagle contract as the main frontline USAF air superiority fighter. Like I said it would've had much better fire control/avionics if successful. And the Lancer of course didn't make it as an export fighter either.
It certainly is a nice little bird.
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hawker445

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Re: mig 21 opponent
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2012, 08:07:25 PM »

The F-5 was actually a superior dogfighter when pitted against the MiG 21 - don't believe me check it out, the Russians themselves evaluated captured South Vietnam F-5 s in mock dogfights and were not impressed with the results. So with a realistic FM it would achieve a higher kill ratio .... but they never met for real as the USAF never realised how good it could be until much later. So the duel was fought - and often lost - by  faster, but less manouverable, missile armed F-4s. It has been shown on many occasions in the US fighter schools that the F-5 properly handled is still more than a match for most aircraft ...

It was one of those aircraft ahead of its time that, if used properly, could have been a game changer.



We all know that you have an F-5 buried in your game. ;)
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SAS~Anto

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Re: mig 21 opponent
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 06:14:23 AM »

Hehe, its funny how this thread keeps on appearing again and again!

Just a reminder, keep this civil. The previous 2-3 attempts at this discussion went south fast...
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THE J-REX

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Re: mig 21 opponent
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2012, 03:13:07 PM »

Quote
the av8er team is thinking about making an F-5 after they finish the mig
they have that part down
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M0SCA

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Re: mig 21 opponent
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2012, 04:01:17 PM »

;)
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mojojojo

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Re: mig 21 opponent
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2012, 05:27:19 PM »

isnt that whathisface? the isreali guy whos the top scoring jet ace in the world
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US_GRANT

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Re: mig 21 opponent
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2012, 08:28:09 PM »

Phantom forever! :D



Actually, it's Phantom Phorever.
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mojojojo

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Re: mig 21 opponent
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2012, 07:48:25 AM »

i REALLY want to see a mirage in il2
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mad_pilot

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Re: mig 21 opponent
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2012, 08:47:56 AM »

  :)
@driver64 No actually, his name is Samir Aziz Mikhail, He was the best MiG 21 ace in the world, with 5 proven kills, his title was "King of Low Flying". He made maneuvers only a metre-high from the ground by a MiG 21pfm.? Oh and he's still alive!

Does any one know where can i find the whole video?
Cheers!
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HundertzehnGustav

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Re: mig 21 opponent
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2012, 08:53:14 AM »

then make one...
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mojojojo

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Re: mig 21 opponent
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2012, 09:56:50 AM »

i dont know how 2 mod. i think someone else is making a mirage anyway
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