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[mojojojo]

lol
lightning is an amazing plane.

[Wildchild]

Cease your bickering! Probelm solved:



@edit: Dead link removed
@edit: Dead link removed

 

[mojojojo]

we know. the F-8 has been out for a while. however, it's performance was certainly a good deal inferior to the MiG 21.

[HundertzehnGustav]

he was "a gonner" if you know what i mean.
big ol grin...

[LuseKofte]

Do not agree in that, if you meant real life. Pilots training made all the difference. You talking about two planes with different good sides and bad sides.
You almost cannot compare any aircraft in a single sentence. Most impormtant. In real life winning a aereal battle, depended in factors witch sience cant put numbers on. In Vietnam it was still a see first factor, can the pilot fight the fight on his terms, what altitude and speed. Naah

[mojojojo]

i agree le0ne. a good pilot in a slightly inferior aircraft certainly still can win. however, that doesn't completely make up for the fact that the crusader wasn't quite as good as the MiG.

[Duggy]

Not sure where you get your info about the F-8 being outclassed by the Mig 21??
http://www.cloudnet.com/~djohnson/migmstrs.html
But it always comes down too tactics & training.
Regards Duggy

[SAS~Anto]

It is now JetWar 1.2 compatible.  A patch was released yesterday.

Indeed the point about pilot skill is justified BUT also the tactics and strategy of the respective Air Forces played a big roll. On paper, an F-4 Phantom is generally superior to the MiG-21s they were up against. They were more powerful, had faster rate of climb, excellent electronic systems and could carry a rediculous amount of firepower (though early and Naval models lacked cannons). Let's not forget the F-4 also carried a set of extra eyes and extra brain! The MiG-21s on the other hand, were more maneuverable but lacked the range and firepower (most only carried up to two K-13As, which were inferior to the USAF AIM-9Ds). Only a few models had cannons and the rest occasional used the GP-3 gunpod (which reduced top speed).

Yet in combat, the MiG-21 has a much higher kill ratio than the F-4. Why? It was the tactics employed by each side. Not only did the MiGs have a target-rich environment, but they were operating purely in a defensive role within their own airspace and with support of SAM/AAA batteries. The MiGs purely acted as interceptors, a role they excelled at. Initially Phantoms acted as big missile boats and relied on their fancy technology, which ended up being their downfall. Not to mention, when they got into a dogfight, they were usually outclassed by the MiG pilots AND even if they did manage to get one in their sites, early/Naval Phantoms lacked a cannon to finish the job! Let's not forget that the Phantom was used in multiple roles and whilst it was great at most of them, it was not a pure interceptor like the MiG-21.

You do see a shift later where F-4 pilots become smarter and start using diversion tactics to draw MiGs into scenarios which favour them but the NVAF caught onto this quickly. Even so, with some retraining (e.g. TOPGUN) and some rethinking of strategy/tactics, you do see the F-4s survival improve against the 21.

My summary probably isn't 100% accurate but if you do read over the literature, it does definitely support the hypothesis that pilot ability and air force strategy generally is more predictive in the modern arena of success in combat than fancy technology.

[4S_Vega]

It is now JetWar 1.2 compatible.  A patch was released yesterday.

Indeed the point about pilot skill is justified BUT also the tactics and strategy of the respective Air Forces played a big roll. On paper, an F-4 Phantom is generally superior to the MiG-21s they were up against. They were more powerful, had faster rate of climb, excellent electronic systems and could carry a rediculous amount of firepower (though early and Naval models lacked cannons). Let's not forget the F-4 also carried a set of extra eyes and extra brain! The MiG-21s on the other hand, were more maneuverable but lacked the range and firepower (most only carried up to two K-13As, which were inferior to the USAF AIM-9Ds). Only a few models had cannons and the rest occasional used the GP-3 gunpod (which reduced top speed).

Yet in combat, the MiG-21 has a much higher kill ratio than the F-4. Why? It was the tactics employed by each side. Not only did the MiGs have a target-rich environment, but they were operating purely in a defensive role within their own airspace and with support of SAM/AAA batteries. The MiGs purely acted as interceptors, a role they excelled at. Initially Phantoms acted as big missile boats and relied on their fancy technology, which ended up being their downfall. Not to mention, when they got into a dogfight, they were usually outclassed by the MiG pilots AND even if they did manage to get one in their sites, early/Naval Phantoms lacked a cannon to finish the job! Let's not forget that the Phantom was used in multiple roles and whilst it was great at most of them, it was not a pure interceptor like the MiG-21.

You do see a shift later where F-4 pilots become smarter and start using diversion tactics to draw MiGs into scenarios which favour them but the NVAF caught onto this quickly. Even so, with some retraining (e.g. TOPGUN) and some rethinking of strategy/tactics, you do see the F-4s survival improve against the 21.

My summary probably isn't 100% accurate but if you do read over the literature, it does definitely support the hypothesis that pilot ability and air force strategy generally is more predictive in the modern arena of success in combat than fancy technology.

i agree

I think the F4 is found in difficult situations against more agile MIG21 cause pilots error or castrating rules of engagement (in vietnam)
it's like to be forced, with a 190A5, to engage in a close duel against a Yak1
if F4 had been free to exploit propely their power and their missiles the chances for MIG21s would have been very few
The MIG21bis filled a large part of the gaps against the Phantom, better than the Mig23...but at the time the F4 development was stopped, the teen series was close to entering the service 

[Dark Apostle]

It is now JetWar 1.2 compatible.  A patch was released yesterday.

I blame lack of sleep for missing that part which i even frackin quoted /facepalm

[mojojojo]

It is now JetWar 1.2 compatible.  A patch was released yesterday.

where is it? i see no patch. could someone give me a link?

[mojojojo]

Not sure where you get your info about the F-8 being outclassed by the Mig 21??
http://www.cloudnet.com/~djohnson/migmstrs.html
But it always comes down too tactics & training.
Regards Duggy

this is probably referring to MiG 17/19. the crusader didn't see to much combat against the MiG 21.