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Author Topic: what about taxing?  (Read 11442 times)

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congo

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Re: what about taxing?
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2012, 02:28:20 PM »

If you go to this link you will see P-51 tailwheel assemblies and you can see the steering arm at the top of the pivot for the tailwheel. The assemblies are displayed upside down so the steering arm is close to the table. These assemblies are quite similar to other WWII aircraft tailwheel assemblies whether they are built by North American, Vought, Grumman, Curtiss or any of the other major manufacturers. You can also see the spring that holds the steering arm down on the drive until it is released by forward movement of the stick.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=p-51+tail+wheel+assembly&hl=en&biw=1120&bih=629&tbm=isch&tbnid=HhVttVJU6qzKWM:&imgrefurl=http://popartmachine.com/item/pop_art/LOC%2B1383791/LAND-GEAR-STRUTS-FOR-THE-TAIL-WHEEL-OF-NORTH-AMERICA&docid=AZGrexAyakXRnM&imgurl=http://popartmachine.com/artwork/LOC%252B1383791/0/Land-gear-struts-for-the-tail-wheel-of-North-America%2527s-P-51-Mustang...-painting-artwork-print.jpg&w=560&h=431&ei=ky5VT4KaHer20gHlr8XiDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=510&vpy=74&dur=140&hovh=197&hovw=256&tx=107&ty=131&sig=115459781142433908313&page=2&tbnh=136&tbnw=188&start=18&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:18
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The_Jester

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Re: what about taxing?
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2012, 06:26:48 PM »

He's not griping about the tail wheels not turning when you turn the rudder. He's griping about how the brakes work. On three axis joystick, full left or right rudder is required to use only one brake. He's also complaining about the fact that you can't use the single brakes unless you're going painfully slow in most aircraft. This makes it very difficult to turn tightly at speeds above 0km/h. I believe what he wants is for someone to produce a better model of the braking system in IL2.
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HundertzehnGustav

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Re: what about taxing?
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2012, 06:37:16 PM »

LOL...
then define "better"
!
i mean... coming to a forum and saying "can you make this and that better"... without actually being able to show exactly what you want - a pointless operation.

Leaving history aside, and the technical aspects as well - if you want something, you gots to know what you want. and then, be able to say: here - look, This is what i want.
and that. look at this diagram, Video, image, music. this is my Goal.
This is my dream, my wish and my desire.

That is what is needed to get a ball rolling for most mods.

Thing is - we do not know what battemaster wants. he is not even precise enough to say if it is the tailwheel, the frontwheel, the single engine taxiing or the braking systm that sucks.

we need a lot more information, a lot more photos, films, examples, data, sheets that show
-what is wrong in the game
-what battlemaster wants the game to be like.

simple.
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congo

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Re: what about taxing?
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2012, 07:01:04 PM »

He does not say anything about braking in his post only taxiing and making smooth turns and asked that you look at his video which shows nothing as a comparison. I am just responding to post that state that you dont steer an aircraft on the ground with the rudder pedals which is simply not true.
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Roger Smith

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Re: what about taxing?
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2012, 07:11:06 PM »

He does not say anything about braking in his post only taxiing and making smooth turns and asked that you look at his video which shows nothing as a comparison. I am just responding to post that stae that you dont steer an aircraft on the ground with the rudder pedals which is simply not true.

if you meant my post, what I meant the Rudder pedals don't control the tail wheel itself. At least in IL-2
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HundertzehnGustav

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Re: what about taxing?
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2012, 07:32:08 PM »

exactly, congo.
comparing a modern Mig -29 taxiing qualities (from an other game, not reality) to "unknown plane" in Il-2 makes no sense.
until we have more information, there is little we can do to understand Battlemaster^s goal.
therefor my request for MB... need more info. LOTS more info :)
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SAS~Anto

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Re: what about taxing?
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2012, 10:34:39 PM »

I'm gathering from this post, there are a lot of people complaining about something not being 'realistic', when they have not experienced it in real life themselves.

I will leave this thread up for another day or two. If no one posts some serious technical information relating to the topic, then the thread will be closed ;)
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congo

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Re: what about taxing?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2012, 04:59:28 AM »

WWII tailwheels don't turn when you press the rudder because the wheel is much like one found on a shopping cart, it only goes in the direction it's being dragged to. It doesn't have anything mechanical to make it turn because they would make taking care of aircraft more complicated. Only aircraft with tricycle gears, such as B-24, B-25 and P-63 and today's jets, needed to have them, .

You said nothing about in game likewise for HG you made a general statement about WWII aircraft which is not factual. My post were intended to give folks an understanding of how the tailwheels on most WWII aircraft function. The fact that you think all aircraft from that period had non controllable free castering tailwheels is incorrect. I was responding to LeOne as I have a fair amount of time in tailwheel aircraft.
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Roger Smith

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Re: what about taxing?
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2012, 06:07:49 AM »

WWII tailwheels don't turn when you press the rudder because the wheel is much like one found on a shopping cart, it only goes in the direction it's being dragged to. It doesn't have anything mechanical to make it turn because they would make taking care of aircraft more complicated. Only aircraft with tricycle gears, such as B-24, B-25 and P-63 and today's jets, needed to have them, .

You said nothing about in game likewise for HG you made a general statement about WWII aircraft which is not factual. My post were intended to give folks an understanding of how the tailwheels on most WWII aircraft function. The fact that you think all aircraft from that period had non controllable free castering tailwheels is incorrect. I was responding to LeOne as I have a fair amount of time in tailwheel aircraft.

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Yeager_1946

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Re: what about taxing?
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2012, 07:04:55 AM »


In real life just like in the sim you need to anticipate your turns and start applying rudder movement before you want to turn, for sharp 90 degree turns you will need to use brakes this is true of taildraggers with fully castering tailwheels as well as unlockable tailwheels with a steering mechanism. With steerable tailwheels S-turning is somewhat easier but still takes rudder finesse as the steering arms for the tailwheel normally have springs installed to dampnen them. Tailwheel steering is for maintaining the centerline until the rudder becomes effective during the take-off.

The taxiing dynamics in IL2 are pretty close to the real thing.


Agreed. Taxing in most WW2 taildraggers was a lot more difficult than in modern aircraft with tricycle landing gear. Making the taildraggers in IL2 taxi as easily as a tricycle gear aircraft will therefore be unrealistic.

One reason why it helps to open the throttle a bit when turning is because the increased prop wash hitting the rudder (paired with differential braking) helps to swing the tail around during low speed maneuvering.


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Herra Tohtori

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Re: what about taxing?
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2012, 07:27:45 AM »

Well, the single most unrealistic thing about taxiing is the traction on the wheels, or more specifically the lack of it.

What I mean is in reality the interaction between the tire and road is rather complex and, when the tire is pivoted away from its rolling direction there is an immediate and significant sideways force generated, and the forces is usually strong enough to keep the tire rolling straight on the road. In IL-2, you sort of just skid on top of the surface at the slightest slip angle of the wheels - there's no real traction. Turning nose wheel often has no visible change at all and you have to apply brakes to actually turn the aircraft.

Unfortunately this leads me to believe that the friction forces between wheel and ground surface is modeled in a very simplistic manner, most likely due to computational budget concerns. What that means is it isn't likely to be possible to modify to a more realistic direction. Of course, I could be wrong.


If someone wants to look into it, here are some useful links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornering_force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_patch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frictional_contact_mechanics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_(vehicle_dynamics)


Basically what you would want is to increase the traction force (sideways force in relation to the tire's axle) at low slip angles. What that would do is make it harder for the tire to slip and slide on the surface, and instead the response of for example turning the nose wheel slightly would immediately start turning the aircraft's nose, while the tire would still seem to be rolling "straight" on the surface instead of sliding like it currently does.

Of course you would have to also simulate the breaking point of the traction, where the slip angle is increased so much that the traction force is lost and the tire really does begin to slide sideways on the surface.

I have no idea if these things would be feasible to add or modify to be more accurate in in IL-2. Mathematically speaking, the equations of cornering force, critical slip angle and kinetic friction are simple enough, but modeling the shifts between these forces would be quite hard.

Of course in addition to the actual steering forces, you would have to simulate the torque effects they would have on the plane - the centre of gravity is always above the landing gear contact patches, so when turning you would also apply roll torque toward the direction of the turn, and if the centripetal force from the landing gear contact patches is enough, you would lift the inner landing gear and, if you increased the yaw further you would roll the aircraft over. It seems that a rudimentary system to simulate this is already in the place.

The place to start looking for ways of modification would, then, be the friction values of the surfaces I think. In FMB there is a tick box to "enable friction" and a value that can be edited. The default value seems to provide default taxiing characteristics. I shall attempt to increase the friction and report back what happens.

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HundertzehnGustav

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Re: what about taxing?
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2012, 07:40:22 AM »

"Of course you would have to also simulate the breaking point of the traction, where the slip angle is increased so much that the traction force is lost and the tire really does begin to slide sideways on the surface."

and when you do this, i take a Lightning as an example, one of the next questions would be :
how much further can you push the nose wheel along, after losing the traction force? when yould the rubber tire be deformed and damaged?

if the slip angle is high, how high exactly can it be untill you roll your tire off the gear?

a lot of questions and unknowns to me. A n interesting subject!
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