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Author Topic: P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was  (Read 9384 times)

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Bhawk

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P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was
« on: December 18, 2012, 09:10:59 PM »

P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was

First off I want to say thanks to all the talented modders out there who have made IL2 so much better through modding.

For me there is no better WWII fighter than the P-38 lightning. I am loving the P-38 Trident "what if" that came down the pipe not too long ago. But, there is a P-38 variant we do not yet have that was VERY close to production that could have had a profound effect on the air war in all theaters! The P-38 is my favorite airplane of all time! But this version was just OVER THE TOP!

The P-38K was in development from 1942-1943 and could have seen service as early as late 1943 in P-38K-10-LO models. Had it not been for the need to halt production of the P-38 for 3-4 weeks it is likely the war department would have approved the upgraded design for full production. The P-38K would have outperformed all USAAF aircraft of the time as well as those on the drawig board and would probably have sustained that advantage to the end of the war. Heck with upgraded reliability and unreal performance this thing would have dominated the sky. Looking at history this was a SQUANDERED oppurtunity. The politicians at the war department let so many companies build usless garbage like the Vultee Vengeance when the resources could have been used for what surely would have been the last word in piston driven fighter performance.

A little background for you:

Lockheed had paid close attention to the performance gains achieved with the P-47 when the new "high activity" Hamilton Standard propellers where first fitted on a Republic P-47C in mid 1942. The new "paddle" blade prop had significantly increased the rate of climb and acceleration of the "Jug". As such the P-38K featured paddle-bladed "high activity" Hamilton Standard Hydromatic propellers similar to those used on the P-47. The props pitch was hydraulically adjusted and automatically controlled including an auto-feather. The wider chord paddle blades could adjust faster and through a larger range of motion than earlier designs. Early models for the P-38K-10-LO would likely be 3 bladed and have a prop disc 12'6". (not completely sure on the prop disc height.) Later models (1944 on) maybe say a P-38K-45-LO may have added a four blade prop much like the P-47. Both designs would require spinners of greater diameter and on the test aircraft that were built they stretched to blend the spinners into the nacelles. The P-38K also featured a 2.36:1 gear reduction vs the standard 2:1. This would have increased the torque (twisting force that turns the propeller) and likely would allow the propeller blades to accelerate faster. This coupled with the new blades and more power would mean an excellent bump in acceleration for the aircraft.

The P-38K also featured new Allison V-1710-75/77 (F15R/L) powerplants rated at 1,875 bhp (1,398 kW) at War Emergency Power. The AAF took delivery of a P-38K-1 in September 1943, at Eglin Field. In tests, the P-38K-1 achieved 432 mph (695 km/h) at military power and was predicted to EASILY EXCEED 450 mph (720 km/h) at War Emergency Power (the L models with 135 bhp less per engine could achieve 448 mph at WEP). Testing was conducted on a VERY HOT day and the initial climb rate was 4,800 ft (1,500 m)/min without WEP and over 5,000 ft/min with WEP and the ceiling was 46,000 ft. Lockheed predicted under normal circumstances the ceiling might be as high as 48,000 ft. It reached 20,000 ft (6,100 m) in less than five minutes; this with a coat of camouflage paint which added weight and drag.

Estimates were that across the board performance improved by as much as 15% for the P-38K-1.
In actual trials conducted at Eglin AFB the P-38K-1-LO proved to be VASTLY superior to the P-51B and P-47D in every category of performance measured. Of course just looking at the numbers tells you that when it comes to speed and climbing there were not any fighters from any nation at the time that could compete.

Based on developments of the Allison V1710 engine it would not have been unreasonable to speculate that a P-38K-45-LO in 1944 might have produced 2,250 bhp at War Emergency Power. Some variants of the V1710 actually made quite a bit more power. If you couple that with two 4 bladed propellers from the late war P-47 as well as boosted ailerons and dive brakes you have a nearly unstoppable fighter. It is likely that both P-38K-10-LO and P-38K-45-LO models would have been able to achieve enough speed in level flight to compress! The P-38K-45-LO may have even been capable of speeds around 485mph in level flight! We will never know what the P-38's full potential was because thanks to the idiotic War Department this project never made past the two P-38K test models produced by Lockheed.

What a shame that the War Deparment didn't give Lockheed the two to three measly weeks that they
requested to upgrade the production line to build P-38Ks. Anybody care to correct that error for us? LOL


This is a paddle bladed P-38 however it is not the P-38K. From what I can find no picture exists of either of the actual P-38K models to be produced.

http://www.456fis.org/THE%20P-38/Xp-38k.jpg


I owe Wikipedia and the 456fis for some of the data here as well as an assortment of P-38 books I have collected over the years. Warren M. Bodie is certainly the author of several of those books so I should say "thanks" to him as well. I would love to see what the P-38K might have been able to achieve! I would be happy to help in anyway I can. I do have some experience modding games. Just not IL2. If anyone is willing to take up this cause it would be GREATLY appreciated. I have always wondered what if the P-38K had been mass produced?


Thanks,
Eric
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baronbutcher

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Re: P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 04:41:23 AM »

Interesting but the world beater one has to look at this and some reasons (some quite valid too)
 http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/p-38k-p-51-f4u-even-necessary-29308-2.html
One can say that about a lot of aircraft being world beaters only if for whatever reason. (ie. Martin Baker MB.5, Jets Me262 & He 280 etc (both with more engined development) etc. etc. Still nice request of a nice aircraft, P-38 one of the best looking aircraft of WW2.
Cheers :)

In response to baronbutcher:  You have some valid points [about the real airplane].  But I point out:  Sim!  For fun!  Why not???   ;)
Yes, agree, we have what if's in the jet dept. etc. so why not a few props. I prefer though at least a few tested and made, or at least a flyable protype than than say a He 'Lerche 2', etc. (ie. production batch BV141 than a He 'Lerche2') because there is so much flown and service aircraft missing! ;) Please a Martin Baker MB.5. :)
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CorsairKira

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Re: P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 06:45:48 PM »

Would love to see this... but to do it at all, it should be done right.  That means some adjustment of the visual model, as the engine nacelles were (would have been) modified to fit the new engines (and props [paddle blade type]), among other things.

In response to baronbutcher:  You have some valid points [about the real airplane].  But I point out:  Sim!  For fun!  Why not???   ;)

Here's one of the better (yep, you guessed it *only*) web pages about the P-38K.  Reliability?  No clue.  Sounds a bit biased, to me.  However, it does include the only known photograph of the airplane.  Kinda hard to believe, but apparently true.  (Errrrm, duh!  I now notice that Bhawk has already posted said photo link, and all one has to do is follow the source.  Oh well, here's the website it's from.)

http://www.456fis.org/P-38K.htm

Note the massive difference in the propeller area of the P-38K's Hamilton Standard vs the standard Curtiss prop.
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Bhawk

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Re: P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2012, 08:03:00 PM »

I must admit I am absolutley transparently biased. LOL No doubt I love the Lightning. Sorry if I got a bit carried away. You're right the reliability of the new engines is probably a bit speculative.
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Bhawk

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Re: P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2012, 08:12:24 PM »

It seems like most of the reason they didn't make the P-38K was related to the war department not wanting to shut down the P-38 production line for 2-4 weeks. If not for that we may have had the P-51D and the P-38K not one or the other. As far as I can see it's a pretty simple reason that the plane wasn't produced and probably a decision that didn't have some of the factors weighted properly. You don't have to give up the P-51D or F4U4 to have P-38Ks. It seems to me that shutting down production for such a short period to gain so much more performance is a no brainer. Then again back then the world was a different place, things that seem clear to us today were not so back then. Hind sight is 20/20.
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cuccos19

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Re: P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2013, 07:34:47 AM »

That would be my No.1. aircraft in IL2, as the Lightnings are my all time favorits. :) Other favorites are "strange planes" like XF5U-1, Kawanishi J7W Shinden and planes like these.
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Used mod: 4.12.2m + ModAct 5.3; Mostly used aircrafts: Bf-109s, P-38s, F4Fs, B.239 and Japanes fighters.

SAS~Gerax

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Re: P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2013, 08:46:49 AM »

Kawanishi J7W Shinden and planes like these.

Go here for the J7W1 Shinden DL link (but read the whole topic please)
https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,2290.msg325545.html#msg325545

when having downloaded this plane you can go on with Paulus' mods, find them here:
https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/board,137.0.html

for instance his Shinden variants J7W1 field mod. and J7W1-II:
https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,30774.0.html

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AG-51_Razor

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Re: P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2013, 02:16:41 PM »

It seems like most of the reason they didn't make the P-38K was related to the war department not wanting to shut down the P-38 production line for 2-4 weeks. If not for that we may have had the P-51D and the P-38K not one or the other. As far as I can see it's a pretty simple reason that the plane wasn't produced and probably a decision that didn't have some of the factors weighted properly. You don't have to give up the P-51D or F4U4 to have P-38Ks. It seems to me that shutting down production for such a short period to gain so much more performance is a no brainer. Then again back then the world was a different place, things that seem clear to us today were not so back then. Hind sight is 20/20.

I would be willing to bet that the main reason for it was MONEY!! Back then, they had a bunch of bean counters and efficiency experts making a lot of these decisions. For example, why not put the Merlin in the P-38? I think it all boiled down to resources and money. The P-38 was an expensive fighter compared to the Jug, Corsair and Mustang. Expensive to buy AND maintain compared to the single engine fighters. They were doing what they thought was best in order to get the most bang for their bucks($$$).
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cuccos19

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Re: P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2013, 12:26:30 PM »

Yep, I know. ;) I already had Kodama's (I think that's the modder's name) several years before, and I loved it. I just mentioned that after all kind of Lightnings the "strange" planes are my secondary favorites, and I wrote two examples. :)
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Used mod: 4.12.2m + ModAct 5.3; Mostly used aircrafts: Bf-109s, P-38s, F4Fs, B.239 and Japanes fighters.

cuccos19

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Re: P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2014, 01:52:24 PM »

Nothing about this birdie? :-\ Too much rework on the existing modells?
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Used mod: 4.12.2m + ModAct 5.3; Mostly used aircrafts: Bf-109s, P-38s, F4Fs, B.239 and Japanes fighters.

Bobbo

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Re: P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2014, 07:38:04 AM »

It seems like most of the reason they didn't make the P-38K was related to the war department not wanting to shut down the P-38 production line for 2-4 weeks. If not for that we may have had the P-51D and the P-38K not one or the other. As far as I can see it's a pretty simple reason that the plane wasn't produced and probably a decision that didn't have some of the factors weighted properly. You don't have to give up the P-51D or F4U4 to have P-38Ks. It seems to me that shutting down production for such a short period to gain so much more performance is a no brainer. Then again back then the world was a different place, things that seem clear to us today were not so back then. Hind sight is 20/20.

I would be willing to bet that the main reason for it was MONEY!! Back then, they had a bunch of bean counters and efficiency experts making a lot of these decisions. For example, why not put the Merlin in the P-38? I think it all boiled down to resources and money. The P-38 was an expensive fighter compared to the Jug, Corsair and Mustang. Expensive to buy AND maintain compared to the single engine fighters. They were doing what they thought was best in order to get the most bang for their bucks($$$).
and the USAAF's supply chain; The south Pacific was the major user of the P-38. Both the P-40 and the P-38 used the allison engine which made parts supply that much easier in a very remote part of the world and the (19 years old, hasty trained) mechanics didn't have to learn another engine. 

There is the whole shinning example of the Japanese air force during WWII with the problems of just producing wonderful designs without thinking of the capability of your military to support the new aircraft. A lot of Ki-61s ended up rotting next to runways because of no parts or no mechanic.
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cuccos19

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Re: P-38K the WWII world beater that almost was
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2014, 12:15:31 PM »

I'm not completly sure, that all the Allison V-1710 engines were all the same. P-38 had it with turbosuperchargers, so it must more than just the same engine of the P-40 plus a turbosupercharger added. Basicly could be similar, but not all the same.

I saw/have the P-38 Trident, but it is not the P-38K.

I think (unfortunatelly I'm not an aircraft engineer and also not a modder) the P-38K would need redesigned props and engine cowlings, and new flight modell. Maybe would need more, but I'm no expert, sorry.
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Used mod: 4.12.2m + ModAct 5.3; Mostly used aircrafts: Bf-109s, P-38s, F4Fs, B.239 and Japanes fighters.
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