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[BravoFxTrt]

Thorsten this is for you Buddy, and yes it is and will be through our time, what a perfectly designed Air Frame. I was lucky enough to get 5 rides in this awesome Bird

http://www.apacheclips.com/boards/vbtube_show.php?s=ebdbc39418f8277da6de4cf6f4592f09&tubeid=1921

And when the Pilot says you look behind and see a very big Aircraft, well its completely true, when I looked 6, I always was in awe at the size of the Eagle, she is fucking Big.

And Roll rate its just easy done.

[RedSpade]

   I'm not trying to create trouble here, or controversy, but just looking for an opinion based upon experience superior to mine.  If two pilots of equal ability were to meet, with weapons of comparable ability, one in the F-15 Eagle and the other in MiG-29 (or Su-27), would you expect the F-15 to have the tactical advantage?  IMHO, either of the Russian planes are much better looking than the Eagle, but if I'm going to risk my life, I want the superior weapon.

[BravoFxTrt]

Let me put it to you this way RedSpade, When I was in the USAF while being in an F-16 Unit 457th TFS Fort Worth Spads, During a deployment to Denmark, our Pilots were invited to East Germany to have a Mock  4 v 4  air battle, with in 5 minutes all 4 Mig-29's were shot down each from one different F-16 Pilot, most battles lasting a mere 5 - 10 seconds, and not just with missiles, a couple Guns Guns Guns were called. So you tell me what do we as a country train our Fighter Pilots, "to win".. or What.

Here another Eagle and Lawn Dart show of "We are All That"

http://www.apacheclips.com/boards/vbtube_show.php?s=9a2d96936645a5a04de0f5114dc2f8d2&tubeid=1920

[RedSpade]

   Well then I think my question is unanswered.  Superior training and tactics are indeed a crucial factor and God knows the USA spends a bazillion $ on it each year.    But hardware-wise, I suppose it is impossible to really know which is the superior aircraft.  Unless the "RedFlag" guys buy a number of SU-27s and MiG-29s and then have a "Top Gun" competition between students and instructors.  Now that would be fun to watch!   

[SAS~Tom2]

Thanks for the links, Bravo!
I love that plane from an asthetic point of view.
I assume in the WVR close combat arena, a Mig-29 would have the edge as far as AOA and slow speed maneuvering go, yet the USAF chaps have one big advantage: Machine to pilot interface and efficiancy.
One F-16 pilot summed it up like this: Before the Mig-29 with its more complicated weapon system interface and less free visibility even obtains a lock on the F-16, the Viper pilot would have taken the shot already.
Nowadays, F-15s also have HMCS, and with that the only thing I think pilots would avoid in it vs a Mig-29/Su-27 is a close visual turning fight, as the F-15 quickly bleeds speed in a turn as soon as corner velocity is lost. It is an energy fighter but there's a reason it was one of the if not the most respected fighter until the gen 4+ ACs entered the scene.

Beyond visual range I assume it is still one of the most dangerous up there except the stealth fighers.

[SAS~Tom2]

BTW: Kickass videos!!  ???  
Love the 2nd one! The F-16s and F-15s strafing!

[SAS~Tom2]

PS: If I had to choose a plane for survivability I would always, without doubt, choose the F-15. Above all new planes.
If I had to choose cockpit layout and handling-no doubt for the F-16.
If I wanted kickass style and badass turning handling close in..I'd take a Mig-29.
For comfort and turn rate and AOA sustain..F/A-18.
To beat them all...Eurofighter/..Rafale...,maybe Su-30.
To beat Eurofighter/Rafale/Su-XX..F-22 hands down and or its Russian/Chinese counterparts of which I don't know much.

BTW I'm no pro/expert-only followed discussions in other forums and watched a number of videos.
In the end what Chuck Yeager says is true as well.."It's the man, not the machine".
F-22s recently got beaten by Eurofighters in a close in mog fight...yet that caused a huuge and partially ridiculous debate at BMS forums.. ..I assume the F-22 guys simply had a bad day.
The only thing IMHO the F-22 lacks is HMCS. Its thrust to weight is abnormally high.  ???
Lately, at Benchmarksims, a long discussion concerning F-15 vs F-14(A,B,D) in a close dogfight emerged, IMHO sometimes all this, even with best technical knowledge, is speculation, as long as pilots do not quote their own experiences.

[RedSpade]

You made of ton of excellent  points there Tom2.  Being only a virtual warrior, I suppose I tend toward the looks of the aircraft.  Points made about the F-16 are also well taken.  Perhaps the term, "best tool for the Job" is the phrase that is best applied to this,

[BravoFxTrt]

I see the F-35 fly over my house almost every day and just the way she looks, awe. She's larger than I thought she was, wished I could still go on base to get a close look though.

Very good points there Thorsten.

[SAS~Tom2]

Nice shots, Bravo and late response here lol!


My sort of messy forum culture consume makes me often overread or rather overlook interisting replies very long.
Over my current home area, we do not even have regular aircraft at all except some sports planes and some commercials for the nearby business airport. 
Wish I'd see some of those F-4 smokeplumes here and there.
Those, albeit not exactly, environment friendly, totally rocked and the sound was badass as well.
I'd take their sound over a Techno party any day.

[ANDYTOTHED]

PS: If I had to choose a plane for survivability I would always, without doubt, choose the F-15. Above all new planes.
If I had to choose cockpit layout and handling-no doubt for the F-16.
If I wanted kickass style and badass turning handling close in..I'd take a Mig-29.
For comfort and turn rate and AOA sustain..F/A-18.
To beat them all...Eurofighter/..Rafale...,maybe Su-30.
To beat Eurofighter/Rafale/Su-XX..F-22 hands down and or its Russian/Chinese counterparts of which I don't know much.

BTW I'm no pro/expert-only followed discussions in other forums and watched a number of videos.
In the end what Chuck Yeager says is true as well.."It's the man, not the machine".
F-22s recently got beaten by Eurofighters in a close in mog fight...yet that caused a huuge and partially ridiculous debate at BMS forums.. ..I assume the F-22 guys simply had a bad day.
The only thing IMHO the F-22 lacks is HMCS. Its thrust to weight is abnormally high.  ???
Lately, at Benchmarksims, a long discussion concerning F-15 vs F-14(A,B,D) in a close dogfight emerged, IMHO sometimes all this, even with best technical knowledge, is speculation, as long as pilots do not quote their own experiences.

regarding what you said about the F-14/F-15 fight, as much as I love the eagle with it's friggin' huge wing area (it's maneuverability is often understated because it is an American plane, really it is impressive) the turkey (F-14) could actually fight and turn inside most Soviet era fighters with a competent pilot at the controls. Most navy pilots are MORE than competent due to Topgun so most close in dogfights would likely have fitted the phrase "knife fighting in a phonebox". Would have been interesting to see a topgun graduate fight an eagle driver veteran.

[SAS~Tom2]

Well, I assume the Top Gun thing is -not completely of course- a bit overrated.
It is AFAIK not only US NAVY pilots participating there and not only fighter pilots.
I knew a Tornado pilot who worked there as instructor and also an old highschool story (now we're effectively in myth land  ) had it that the father of a buddy's girl (he was a Luftwaffe F-4 pilot) nailed that trophy, a.o. outgunning 4 F-15s with his F-4.
I think Top Gun is simply a Fighter Weapons School many fighter pilots attend, maybe only the best, but there are lots of first class fighter schooling events, like e.g. Red Flag.
And I assume the Russian Air Force with no doubt has their aces as well.

Of course this is quite a pointless discourse.. ....but somehow fun to guestimate.
I would go for the US Navy chap tbh. 
Or: IAF (Israeli Air Force)..or HAF /Aegean/ Hellenic Air Force
If my Hippie friends see me posting like this, they force me to eat some veggy food lol.
Just kidding mates.