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[Sleepingdragon]

I don't mean to bitch.....well actually I do, as the Merlin on the P-51 is now identical to the absurd glass engine it was many yrs ago when Oleg and crew introduced it. When hit, the engine just stops, and I don't mean just the engine. I took hits in the tail and the engine quit. THis is some of the mythology about how lousy the engine was on the most successful fighter of WW2 that outlasted all of its contemporaries in combat. We need to the damge model of the 51 to return to that of 411 please.

Its problem had to do with ground fire, being much more vulnerable to such than radial engine planes. ALL liquid cooled engines had that problem when compated to radials, but this silliness is the same misinterpretation of history that we had when the 51 was first introduced yrs ago, and was quickly corrected. 

After much hell was raised about such and it this was pointed out, Oleg's guys fixed it shortly after it was introduced all those yrs ago. Go ahead and fly the 51 in some air to air combat and see. Of course you will have to put all the enemy at rookie to have even a chance of surviving, but you will see the result. Note taht Spits, P-40s, and other liquid cooled (including Merlins) planes dont' have engines tha freeze when there is light damge to the plane.

This is really in need of correction, just bring back the same damage models we had with 411, and all will be fine. There was no need to change damage models in the first place, just as there was no need to make all the enemy pilots have the skill level of at least vet.

I love the guys doing this stuff, especially the skins on static planes etc, but this is just retrogressive, and I hope some more of you will speak up about such. The 51 is nearly useless now, as was the case when we first got it yrs ago. The one we had in 411 was pretty realistic I think.

That is all. Thank you for all efforts being made to improve this sim......just a screw up every now and then. Only wanted to notify the powers that be, as I've not seen any mention of it.

Thank you..........

[Typhoon Ib]

i dont fly the mustang much... floppy donkey dingus and all...
but i always thought it was silly that a plane flying at 200+mph could have a prop suddenly stop like the damn mechanmnism froze or welded itself into place.
from X hundred RPM to full stop in about 0.001 seconds?
WTH?

damage model for what its worth... such an effect is ridiculous.

[Fresco23]

I also fly mustangs, and this problem I approach by simply not getting hit 

but seriously, it is a bit prone to fail at the slightest damage...

[Dataman]

I also fly mustangs, and this problem I approach by simply not getting hit 

but seriously, it is a bit prone to fail at the slightest damage...

Realistically. The Mustang had a liquid-cooled engine and a single shot could damage the cooling system, allowing the engine to immediately overheat.

[Typhoon Ib]

"immediately?"
well then the shot has to be placed fairly close to the spot where the coolant meets the engine Block...
else a leak will ndevelop in the system (pipes, valves, radiator, container...) and the  fluid is lost over time, and only after a certain point is reached, the engine temps rise.

but immediately? i doubt it!

[santobr]

Well, it will depend of the pressure of that liquid.
I think it is low pressure, isn't it?
So, it will take some time to overhead.
But a hit on the tail stopping the engine is not so cool.



santobr.

[Typhoon Ib]

anything that stops a Mustang is cool.

mwahahahahahah

[santobr]

 



santobr.

[Herra Tohtori]

"immediately?"
well then the shot has to be placed fairly close to the spot where the coolant meets the engine Block...
else a leak will ndevelop in the system (pipes, valves, radiator, container...) and the  fluid is lost over time, and only after a certain point is reached, the engine temps rise.

but immediately? i doubt it!

Okay, physics time...

The coolant system in Packard Merlin (and R&R Merlin, I presume) used 70% water and 30% ethylene glycol coolant mixture in a pressurized cycle.

If you are at least superficially familiar with how phase transitions work, you should be aware that when pressure is increased, boiling point of liquids increases - and when pressure drops, boiling point drops as well.

So here's the situation - if the engine is running at hot temperature, and the pressurized coolant system springs a leak, the coolant will probably start to boil immediately. This leads to build-up of gas in the coolant system, as well as loss of coolant due to venting. Gas, being much less dense than liquid, has a much lower heat capacity per volume, which means the system's ability to transfer heat from engine to the radiator is dramatically reduced immediately after the pressurization is lost and coolant starts to boil. So, even if you might still have most of your coolant in the system, the cooling system is not going to as effective as a whole, than an intact system.

The effect is more dramatic the higher up you are. Basically when pressurization of the coolant system is breached, it soon balances its pressure with the external atmospheric pressure, which of course is lower at high altitudes. Even if you're running the engine oil and coolant temperatures at, say, 80 degrees Celcius, if you lose the coolant pressurization - even if the leakage of coolant is slow, it can still start to boil almost immediately which will rapidly overheat and damage the engine. Not sure exactly how fast the engine would become inoperative, but it certainly wouldn't take long.

Theoretically, if it's a very slow coolant leak, and if you're running with a cool engine near sea level pressure, then you wouldn't encounter the boiling coolant problem immediately. However as you keep losing coolant, you'll eventually run dry and then you have an engine with practically no cooling at all.


On the other hand I'm pretty sure the "instant engine seizure" damage model doesn't have much to do with coolant system or overheating directly. It feels like it's more like a hit to some critical part of the engine. Distorted engine parts can generate enermous tensions and high friction forces when they're in contact with each other. And I've seen props windmilling even after a "seized" engine, it's just a matter of how fast you're going...

Also sometimes you can't see where you're hit. Sometimes hits don't cause any physical marks on the plane's exterior, and not all projectiles are tracers. In multiplayer it's even worse because of the lag - you can have a stream of bullets going clean past behind you and receive engine damage a second afterwards because that's how the game just works.

I will agree, though, that it seems weird seeing essentially same engine having different damage tolerances and capabilities on different aircraft. Spitfires seem to generate a lot of power and smoke heavily for an eternity, while a P-51 with heavy smoke will be essentially crippled.

[Typhoon Ib]

...okay, makes sense,  some of that i already was familiar with (hydraulics.... certified  n stuff, not that i am proud of it.)
What i would like to note is that the prop stops spinning immediately after a firing pass.
where i admit that i can understand a 13mm/20mm/30mm Bullet bringing even complex machinery to a screeching halt,
this would be a mechanical discussion, not a Fluid one

But let me ask the question, the dreaded question.
Packard= merlin.
what about lancaster spitfire mosquito then?

or, if i apply the large brush, why don't all planes sporting inline engines suffer the same?
because the Mustang is the only plane i recall doing it, the instant stop prop thing.

[SAS~Malone]

this first post really looks as if it would be better suited to the banana forums, to TD themselves, because it almost comes across as if we(SAS) somehow broke it, and therefore need to fix it, lol.
i know it's not really intended, but it does kinda come across that way.
i recommend copy/pasting that post, word for word, into the TD thread there.
it's perfectly worded for that forum, seeing as they are 'the powers that be', in this case

[Sleepingdragon]

Sure I'll post it there.......but I thought this sure qualified as a "request". I'm not blaming you guys for this, but I was hoping it would get around. BTW, Where the blazes are the "banana forums?" I've been around here for a while but.....ah hell I'll use my medical problems as an excuse.

Also THANK YOU Typhoon, as I said, the blasted prop stops instantly, which is VERY rare in combat. WHY then don't the Spits and Mossies or Laggs do that? Hurris? P-40s and P-38s with with Allisons, were fairly successful in ground attack. And how bout the Typhoon and Tempest?

Again I ask, how could the 51 be the most successfull prop fighter in history (I stand by that) including agianst FWs and Zekes with radials. I never read a single complaint in the zillions of accounts ive read (or heard in person since I was a kid) of P-51 pilots concerning air to air vulnerabilty; they mentioned it regarding ground attack, but certainly was not their fate everytime they were hit. Props did not instantly freeze every time.

I know that 51s suffered around a 5x higher loss rate compared to P-47s in the attack role, but the 47 was more heavily armored and sturdy, and had that huge radial engine that you could shoot cylinders off of and still take you home. Of course radials are tougher. This became a real problem in Korea, where the USAF refused to send the last few squadrons of ANG 47s and sent 51s for this role (dumb);Corsairs suffered much lower losses in Korea to ground fire, but this was not an issue against Yaks etc.

My main point is that in 411 this cartoonish BS was corrected,  but now it's back. this is retrogressive.   Needs to the corrected, as few will fly the blasted thing if it's not. An Egyptian Spit or Syrian Maachi 205 will blow your Isreali 51 outta the air everytime. We need the 411 standard back; this was a solution to a non-existent problem. 

This and the screwed up AI levels really need correction much quicker than a yr or two. I'm gonna be doing my stuff in DBW etc in the meantime.