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Author Topic: Response to Climbing Tactic  (Read 1330 times)

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Zachary_Braun

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Response to Climbing Tactic
« on: March 12, 2014, 12:26:17 PM »

I was in a Yak-15, having a difficult time with some He-162s because the AI programming seemed to never run out of energy. This was made very apparent when I started chasing one at 2,200 meters and then, he enters a looooong spiralling climb, probably trying to escape. We climb for over 2 kms! It would probably be even more, but by that time, I have been reduced to 150 km/h and one of his wingmates just climbs up from behind and one-shots me out of the sky.

I think it is a legitimate tactic... the opponent attempts to climb in a more agile aircraft. Eventually the player's own aircraft can no longer follow.

What is the proper response to this tactic? I thought that by 4.12.2, the AI can overheat and/or run out of energy...
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Herra Tohtori

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Re: Response to Climbing Tactic
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2014, 01:20:30 PM »

Well, probably your problem is that Yak-15 is simply deficient as a fighter aircraft. VVS gave up using it as an actual frontline fighter, and instead delegated it to jet conversion training because it was easy to fly, as it used the same wing as the Yak it was developed from.

The He-162 is much faster and has better climb rate. One possible benefit you could use is the fuel endurance. With a full fuel tank, a He-162 had a flight endurance of just about half an hour at combat power. If you can just follow them long enough, avoid any attacks they make, and conserve your fuel, you might be able to take them down as they run out of juice.

Would be boring as hell, though.
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Zachary_Braun

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Re: Response to Climbing Tactic
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2014, 02:47:12 PM »

Does this mean, that the only effective tactic is to know the skill of the opponent's aircraft in relation to the player's aircraft, and then make a decision about whether to engage or not?
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Herra Tohtori

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Re: Response to Climbing Tactic
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2014, 03:11:55 PM »

No. The only effective tactic is to only engage at advantage. Getting to advantageous position is the first tricky bit. Judging when you have sufficient advantage to engage is the second tricky bit.

After you get those two things in order, you only need flying and gunnery skills to make your attacks effective.

And then you need wingmen to get you out of the messes you get into by ignoring the three previous things...
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tomoose

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Re: Response to Climbing Tactic
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2014, 06:10:31 PM »

Herra is right on the money.  Know your aircraft and be aware of what your enemy aircraft can do.  If you can't climb after them, then don't.  Dive and find a cloud, get some energy/speed.  Live to fight another day if necessary.
You have wingmen for a reason.  Use them.  The AI wingmen can be a bit stupid at times but they can also be a life saver.
If it seems like the enemy is gangin up on you then it's probably because you are on your own and need help.

 ;)
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Fresco23

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Re: Response to Climbing Tactic
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2014, 07:21:31 PM »

Herra and tomoose are both correct. Tomoose said to know your aircraft and know your enemies aircraft. These are the to most important aspects of air combat. Also.. it helps to have good spatial awareness....  ;D

One thing to try in your situation... you can try to lure him in by turning away when he does this running climb.

Perfected by my brother flying LaGG3 and consequently adapted to other scenarios, we used this tactic to great advantage back in 4.10 editions, flying VVS fighters against FWs, which were fond of this same run/climb/turn tactic, as well as other Luftwaffe fighters.

As the enemy fighter reaches a great distance and continues to outrun or out climb you, turn away (about 40-60 degree off) and keep watching him. Soon he'll turn back into you and attempt to close for combat again, this will give you a very narrow window, but with good piloting, you may be able to get a good position. If you are very lucky(or unlucky.. depending on your point of view..) he MAY attempt to scissor with you allowing a greater engagement chance..

We killed many Luftwaffe aces in this manner. My brother was fond of the head on pass at this point to maximize his accuracy, but the enemy will likely fire also making it very dangerous. My brother had good luck in this approach, but I often got hit, and being somewhat proficient with deflection shooting, I preferred to force a turning engagement. Both of us had success, so it really comes down to where your preferences/strengths lie.

Herra's words about attacking in advantage only are also very true. You can shoot down most any enemy with smarts and patience. For example...true story:

My brother and I went up in a pair of FW-190D-9 (the flat canopy "early" version from the FW pack... our favorite) anyway at about 3500-4000 meters, we spotted a dogfight off our 11 o-clock. Judging by radio traffic there were two or three German fighters, and at least 8-10 enemy fighters engaged. We decided to assist them, so we climbed and approached at full speed. We found two BF-109 G engaged by 8 Tempest, and 2 Spitfires... The long story made short is, both 109 were shot down without achieving kills. My brother and I, by carefully approaching each turn, climb, dive, etc. and with CONSTANT head turning and watching of every enemy, shot down 9 of the RAF fighters without getting hit once, the remaining Spitfire flew away with a fuel leak, and we let him go to tell the story... 8)

Now that told, I will add that I NEVER make a mission with fighters at less than "veteran" skill level and often add "aces" so these were not AI flying in straight lines and LOOONG circles... they were fighting very aggressively. By working together we managed to out think and out fly them. But most important was positioning, speed, speed, speed, timing, and lastly and importantly gunnery. It does no good to out fly them if you cant bring them down when the time comes.  ;D
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Zachary_Braun

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Re: Response to Climbing Tactic
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2014, 08:49:18 PM »

Thank you for the advice.
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