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[mave0069@hotmail.com]

  hello, everybody. Thank you descifrar by to rescate other plane japonese, are  my to prefeir .

[decipher]

Aircraft Guns seem less effective in TFM.

hey guys, since i already mentioned it once and at least the "problem" seems to be mentioned before,
i took the time to do some testings on my own.
i am not sure which mod, or combination of mods, is responsible for the described behavior, but
the results shown below indicate that there really is something happening that especially affects
(japanese) 20mm cannons.

tested in a clean TFM the next level installation compared to a clean modact 5.3 installation using
the same QMB mission with the following parameters, only stock planes used:

Pacific Islands, 5000m, Advantage, 500m difference, BlueNoneA00, 11:15am , clear weather

1.) a6m2-21 vs f4f-3:
a6m2-21 (player), 70% fuel, W2 200m convergence (20mm cannon)
F4F-3 (Ace), 80% fuel

ONLY 2x20mm Type99 Cannons:
il-2 4.12.2m + Modact 5.3 = 4,1,6,11T,4T,4T,8W,4W,12X,3  -- ~5.5 Hits/kill
il-2 4.12.2m + TFM TNL =    8,16W,23W,14,17,19,9W,1,7,12 -- ~12.75 Hits/kill

notes:    - Ace AI in TFM much harder to hit
      - vanilla 4.12.2m Ace AI gives up, makes mistake after taking damage more often
      - Tests with 120 shots fired and no kill: 14,3,6,3,7,5,15,11,15 Hits

--------------
      
2.) a6m2-21 vs a6m2-21:
a6m2-21 (player), 70% fuel, W2 200m convergence (20mm cannon)
a6m2-21 (rookie), 80% fuel

ONLY 2x20mm Type99 Cannons:
il-2 4.12.2m + Modact 5.3 = 1,8W,4X,3T,1T,2X,6T,4T,3W,5 -- ~3.5 Hits/kill
il-2 4.12.2m + TFM TNL =    6,5W,4,7,8,8,10W,7,7,12       -- ~7.25 Hits/kill
      
-------------
      
3.) f4f-3 vs a6m2-21:
f4f-3 (player), 70% fuel, W1+2 200m convergence
a6m2-21 (rookie), 80% fuel

4x12.7mm m2 browning guns:
il-2 4.12.2m + Modact 5.3 = 3,14,7,7,6,28W,22,9,6,24W  -- ~11.875 Hits/kill
il-2 4.12.2m + TFM TNL =    8,14,12,27,28,8,9,10,17,14 -- ~13.875 Hits/kill
      
------------

4.) Hurricane IIc vs a6m2-21:
Hurricane IIc (player), 70X fuel, 200 convergence
a6m2-21 (rookie, 80% fuel

standard 4x20mm Hispanos:
il-2 4.12.2m + Modact 5.3 = 3X,2W,7W,4T,4T,4X,8W,4W,3W,4W  -- ~4.125 Hits/kill
il-2 4.12.2m + TFM TNL =   4X,6,8,7W,12W,12X,6W,10X,3X,5W -- ~7.25 Hits/kill
      
-----------

legend: T - Tail ripped off
      W - Wing ripped off
      X - Exploded mid air

notes:
      - highest and lowest scores removed before calculating average bullet Hits/Kill ratio

----------

conclusion:

all bullets seem to do less damage in TFM, but the effect is most obvious with
the japanese 20mm cannons. in general it is also worth noticing that hitting
the AI is considerably harder in TFM(due to SAS engine Mod).
This seems partly due to different AI behavior (they tend to "jiggle" more randomly -
vanilla AI is much more like on rails, resulting in easier aiming) but might have other
reasons adding up to it.

Maybe the mass/physical size of bullets, destructive power, velocity, hit detection
for bullets and aircraft, or some other similar variable might have been modified in a mod?

could bullet/smoke/tracer mods effect the efficiency of bullets? does SAS engine mod modify
gun behavior, bullet physics or something else affecting any of these variables?

i would really like to solve this "puzzle" but maybe i am just wasting time on something
that isn't really that important to others...

best regards, deci!

i am surprised to see that almost no one cares about this problem... basically no one, except one person who sent me a personal message about this...

it is obvious that something changed and it changed to the worse mainly for japanese zero pilots it seems? maybe some modder who loves to play US planes gave himself a little advantage? maybe some modder changed the damage rates of bullets to better reflect historical data? maybe this is part of SAS engine mod? maybe this is a bug from a combination of (effect mods) influencing tracer bullets or the amount of bullets fired or the hit detection on aircraft due to some mod?

please note these assumptions are exaggerated. i really just want to know why this difference is there and what causes it and there are enough people around here with inside information on modding, the modpacks, TFM. etc. , who could shed light onto the situation...

if something as important as the damage ratio of bullets gets a (silent) drastic change in favor of one game nation, the whole TFM package integrity could be questioned.

[SAS~Malone]

you should be careful when making rash assumptions like this.
i have much 'inside information' as you put it, and i am unaware of any such changes made to favor any particular nation.
also, almost none of the people involved are US nationality, so it seems unlikely that this is the case.
much more likely is some conflict of mods that has not been picked up yet, or some bug that is affecting your install - i personally don't experience what you're reporting, so to say the entire package is faulty simply because you have some problem, is not the way to look at it...

[bergkamp]

Hi Malone and Deci.

Just my 2 cents on the above and no assumption can be made at the end, as my flying skills are crap and as for my deflection shooting, I couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo. I have attempted to make a comparison flying the IJN Fighter stock DGen campaign alongside DBW NewTFM and TFM412 and comparing the two, mission by mission. Four missions in, my early observation suggests there seems to be a difference in hit damage caused by the A6M2-21 on the F4F3. Taking into account my aforementioned gunnery skills, the F4F3's, whilst seemingly more manoeuvrable in TFM412 campaign, also take less visible hit damage than in it's NewTFM counterpart.

As I say, just my 2 cents and as I've only looked at 4 missions side by side, my opinion is probably as way off the mark as my trusty banjo.

Bergkamp



 

[SAS~Malone]

thanks, mate - of course, the issue needs to be looked at, if there is indeed a general problem.
at this point, it seems only one or two guys are suffering from this, as it's not been reported by most people.
so, sure, let's investigate it further, but it's way too soon to be pointing fingers at one particular mod pack.
there are so many variables with modding this game, the problem could lie anywhere, literally.
so really, it will take some more input from more members to help identify a possible problem.
another thing to remember, with almost every different mod pack that has been available over the years, there are always a handful of people complaining that their favorite planes don't act/work properly.
it seems impossible to please everybody, really....
at the end of the day, my advice is to simply choose the mod pack that you are happiest with, personally.

[bergkamp]

at the end of the day, my advice is to simply choose the mod pack that you are happiest with, personally.

Roger that. I still fly my good 'ol NewTFM in order to play out Asura's modded DGen campaigns and TFM412 to mess around in FMB (plus Monty's BoB). At the end of the day, it's all about having fun.

As an aside, I have d/l'd the "Hell in the Pacific" series of campaigns to TFM412 to see how they play out. I have completed the first two Peleliu missions and all seems to run good at the moment.

Bergkamp

[FL2070]

Can you make a superpack that installs the whole thing?

[decipher]

you should be careful when making rash assumptions like this.
i have much 'inside information' as you put it, and i am unaware of any such changes made to favor any particular nation.
also, almost none of the people involved are US nationality, so it seems unlikely that this is the case.
much more likely is some conflict of mods that has not been picked up yet, or some bug that is affecting your install - i personally don't experience what you're reporting, so to say the entire package is faulty simply because you have some problem, is not the way to look at it...

it was meant as an exaggeration. also i didn't mean american people changing variables to favor america. i meant people who like to fly american planes in pacific campaigns, whether they be british, german, american, japanese, indian, etc etc.

what i was trying to point out is that this problem is NOT an isolated little problem that comes from a faulty installation.
if some people do not notice this is most probably because they don't fly aircraft with weapons that are most affected by this,
they use infinite ammo, or invincibility, or have the aircraft that are weakened as enemies.

i raised over exaggerated assumptions to provoke a reaction, so that people can see something is wrong here.

just saying "then don't use TFM" is also not what i wanted to hear. i like TFM and the effort monty put into it is much appreciated, i want to actively help to FIX it, by finding the ROOT of this problem.

this is not about "oh my fav. plane has changed in this pack!" - my observation proves a global change in the way damage is dealt or detected, which favors SOME aircraft and weaken others... now i want to see exactly which files do that, why they do that and if it was just an co-incidence because of some conflicting mods, or whatever.

if the TFM readme would say "included are modifications to the power of different guns, to reflect a more realistic historical accurate representation" i wouldn't have raised my concerns. but it didn't. so something is wrong.

i would rather like to help finding a solution then to explain myself over and over again...

[bergkamp]

Can you make a superpack that installs the whole thing?

Not sure if your question was referring to the "Hell in the Pacific" campaigns I mentioned but you can get them here (when the site is back up):

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=15243

[SAS~Malone]

i can appreciate any concerns, especially if they are well presented, such as deciphers.
yet i still see fingers pointing at a mod pack, and no real attempts at people noticing any such changes that are made (and documented) with the latest official patches, courtesy of Team Daidalos.
for example, why not do similar tests and results between stock patched versions 4.10, 4.11 and 4.12?
once such stock comparisons can be made, then it would make sense to look towards mods. at the moment, the comparisons don't reflect this.
so, don't get me wrong - as i said, i appreciate the efforts, and, of course, if we can pinpoint a disparity, we can attempt to fix it.
it's just that, at the moment, what i'm seeing seems to be a generalisation between modded versions, and yet very little about the deeper root, so to speak, of changes made in official patches, before any mods get near them...
so, by all means, i like the input, but we need more...
as you can see here, there's a mere handful of people complaining of this, and for the most part, none barring one or two, have made any real effort to bring something valid to the table - they are for the most part, just comments of a general perception.
as you can understand, there's very little we can do to resolve such 'perception' orientated reports, unless they are backed up with solid stats, such as decipher's info.

[il2modnewb]

Hi newb here

I get a 5% crash when i start the game i dont know what causes it, i donwloaded en installed using jsgme all the 27 packs plus the heavies patch, i dont know where to find the file that shows why it crashes can some one explain where i can find it so i can post it here and see why it crashes,
Thanks for reading and the help
-Newb

[vpmedia]

Did you download the up3/dbw sfs files required by TFM-412?
http://www.derrierloisirs.fr/il2/TFM-412/_19xSFS_files.rar