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Author Topic: P-36 and applying flaps  (Read 14066 times)

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Ala13_ManOWar

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Re: P-36 and applying flaps
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2014, 05:57:47 AM »

But, really Herra??

I said many times yet, an aircraft climbs because excess power. Without power you wouldn't climb isn't it? you don't "believe" it's your problem but it isn't a matter or faith it's physics, it's science, it's engineering... Second link in a quick google search, you can go further as wish,



http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/web/library/enginfo/aerothermal_dvd_only/aero/perf/climb/


And don't make me laugh,

Quote
It can't be the engine's thrust because that's directed forward
Please mate, an engine isn't directed forward it always have some angles engineered, and propeller never push you "only" forward, there are many forces implied there, P factor makes you climb indeed not only go to left or right (what you know as torque). Anyway, if you throttle up speed increases and AoA needed decreases, even the slightest, enough to make your prop to "point" upward. Once there OF COURSE your engine have a vertical vector force that is what makes you climb, you're hanging of your prop in fact, even more as said before during climb you're so hanging than your weight is lower than your actual weight because a part of it is hold by the engine, that's why the more excess power you have the more you climb. That go until the more extreme case, where your lift is 0, and all your weight is supported by your engine, that's called ballistic mode. All of that are the basics in principles of Flight matter. I told you, I don't doubt you know about physics, but you can't apply directly to aircraft flying because what you think "logic" isn't so much really in flying, you have to apply the logic of flight not yours.


S!
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Ghost129er

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Re: P-36 and applying flaps
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2014, 06:48:53 AM »

What... Is with... This thread?  ???
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But whenever they talked about him, they always had a slight smile on their faces.. And that, perhaps, maybe your answer.

SAS~Gerax

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Re: P-36 and applying flaps
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2014, 06:54:13 AM »

What... Is with... This thread?  ???
Strange question. Can you explain?
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Herra Tohtori

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Re: P-36 and applying flaps
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2014, 08:00:08 AM »

But, really Herra??

I said many times yet, an aircraft climbs because excess power. Without power you wouldn't climb isn't it?

Stop evading the question. You've posted the same stuff about sustained climb performance without actually answering the question I'm asking you.

What makes the aircraft change its direction from horizontal?


Quote
you don't "believe" it's your problem but it isn't a matter or faith it's physics, it's science, it's engineering... Second link in a quick google search, you can go further as wish,



http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/web/library/enginfo/aerothermal_dvd_only/aero/perf/climb/

This picture does not show the situation I am speaking of.


Quote
And don't make me laugh,

Quote
It can't be the engine's thrust because that's directed forward
Please mate, an engine isn't directed forward it always have some angles engineered, and propeller never push you "only" forward, there are many forces implied there, P factor makes you climb indeed not only go to left or right (what you know as torque).

Yes. Angle of attack causes part of the thrust vector to have a vertical component relative to direction of movement (thrust multiplied by sine of angle of attack).

However, since angle of attack is never greater than ~15 degrees in conventional aircraft (and that's an extreme situation), that gives us an upper limit of 25% of the engine's total thrust. Even more surprisingly you can do an experiment where angle of attack remains zero for thrust and wings... which means the upward force (or a trajectory-normal force) from the engine is, practically speaking, zero.

P-factor and other torque effects are not relevant here because you could just as well replace the engine with a rocket or jet engine.



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Anyway, if you throttle up speed increases and AoA needed decreases, even the slightest, enough to make your prop to "point" upward.

You're not making much sense here... what are you trying to say? If AoA supposedly decreases, shouldn't the thrust vector turn downwards?

More importantly why would the angle of attack change due to change in power settings?



Quote
Once there OF COURSE your engine have a vertical vector force that is what makes you climb, you're hanging of your prop in fact, even more as said before during climb you're so hanging than your weight is lower than your actual weight because a part of it is hold by the engine, that's why the more excess power you have the more you climb. That go until the more extreme case, where your lift is 0, and all your weight is supported by your engine, that's called ballistic mode. All of that are the basics in principles of Flight matter. I told you, I don't doubt you know about physics, but you can't apply directly to aircraft flying because what you think "logic" isn't so much really in flying, you have to apply the logic of flight not yours.


How many times do I have to say I'm not talking about sustained climb? All your arguments only apply when the aircraft is already climbing.

In level flight, an aircraft doesn't have vertical speed. It needs some upward net force to accelerate it slightly to gain some vertical speed. What is that force?


Let's remove the engine altogether because it's just complicating things. You're flying a rocket-powered glider with engine turned off. You have plenty of airspeed, and you want the aircraft to turn upwards to regain altitude after destroying a bomber, what do you do to change the aircraft's trajectory upward?

What is the force that turns your aircraft upward?
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Ghost129er

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Re: P-36 and applying flaps
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2014, 08:12:03 AM »

What... Is with... This thread?  ???
Strange question. Can you explain?

I mean, this thread got like REALLY serious at some point and had anger in it.. I'm pretty zapped at how peeps take some stuff like this to such an extent.. Anyways, ignore me for now, please, continue. :3
*Hides in the pictures.*
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But whenever they talked about him, they always had a slight smile on their faces.. And that, perhaps, maybe your answer.

Ala13_ManOWar

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Re: P-36 and applying flaps
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2014, 09:19:39 AM »

What... Is with... This thread?  ???
Strange question. Can you explain?
Not really  ??? , even I don't understand what really is Herra looking for, what he wants to demonstrate, what's his point is or what the hell is going on...


Herra really, you want to fight against engineers? Fine. You think Il-2 is great and have no flaws? Fine. You want to through yourself from a bridge and calculate lift? FINE. But not my problem you don't want to understand how it works. Said before, not my business to teach you anything, look for pilots theory the net is plenty of sites with free access to the information. Study it, fight with it, or whatever you want but do it by yourself, I tried more than I wish to.


Last example, do you know what happens to pilot student thinking what you say about lift, lift, lift?? This...




Otherwise, as the great Henry Purcell said,




S!
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Herra Tohtori

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Re: P-36 and applying flaps
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2014, 09:57:52 AM »

Here's the thing: You're saying that the engine is somehow responsible for the force that pushes the aircraft upward.

The mathematical fact is that the engine's thrust is woefully inadequate to provide the required acceleration for the aircraft.


If you pull the aircraft up, the GO-UP-FORCE does not come from the engine, it comes from the wings. If you have any amount of airspeed you can easily pull over 2g of acceleration from level flight in most aircraft (not saying that you should, just that you can).


There is no physical way that the engine can be responsible for that. All that acceleration is produced by lift, and lift is produced by the wings.



I'm not talking about a situation where your aircraft is climbing at a steady rate of climb, constant airspeed. Of course in that kind of situation the dynamics are different because there are no accelerations on the airframe. That means the forces are in equilibrium.

But the forces are not in equilibrium when the plane is turning upwards. Just like you're pulling g's in a turn, the aircraft is pulling g's when it's turning upwards when lift is greater than weight.

Which includes the example situations: When power is increased, the thrust itself doesn't pull the aircraft up, that happens because airspeed increases while angle of attack remains constant, and that causes increased lift which of course pulls the aircraft up. I'm not sure how this seems to be such a difficult concept to you. You keep talking about lift being equal to weight, but it's easily demonstrable that it isn't in these cases.

I'm not sure where your condescension comes from. You are simply saying things that are not true.
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Ala13_ManOWar

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Re: P-36 and applying flaps
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2014, 10:26:40 AM »

Told you, I don't need to argue any more.


-... The mathematical fact is that the engine's thrust is woefully inadequate to provide the required acceleration for the aircraft. ...

A pilots joke may be you don't know,


Three men are told to design an aircraft, a mathematician, a physicist and an engineer.

They design it, make calculations and their aircraft are built.

Mathematician's aircraft is perfect calculated, the best, the more accurate,  but doesn't even fly and he don't know why.

Physicist's aircraft is less perfect but still very accurate. It also doesn't fly, but he does know why.

The engineer aircraft is lesser than perfect, even not very accurate, but it flies very well despite engineer doesn't know why...   ;D ;D ;)




S!
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Herra Tohtori

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Re: P-36 and applying flaps
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2014, 11:26:52 PM »

Please, just answer the question: What is the force that changes an aircraft's direction of movement?
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Joberg

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Re: P-36 and applying flaps
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2014, 12:03:55 AM »

You have AOA lift and airspeed lift that you have to balance out to maintain level flight or a desired rae of climb/descent. The SUREST over time way to increase lift is to add power. If you change nothing else but add power the plane Will climb, even if the nose appears to be pointed slightly downwards sometimes. This is why pilots often say "use power for altitude"

The Quickest way to increase lift is by increasing the angle of attack(pitch). This points the nose up and the plane will start ballooning up. The problem with this is that if you change nothing else but increase AOA the plane will briefly climb, but will also gain much drag which will reduce the airspeed(and the lift generated by it), causing the plane to sink eventually. This is why pilots often say "use pitch for airspeed".

Now really, like I said before, you are balancing out the two sources of lift all the time but following the above "rules" helps people stay out of trouble.

In general aviation (I've never flown a P-36 unfortunately) if the pilot adds flaps this increased the AoA lift so the plane balloons up, and then slows down quickly, unless the pilot anticipates this and is ready with some nose-down pressure to prevent excessive ballooning. I'm not the most experienced pilot in the world by far but in each plane that I have (C152, DA20, PA28, PA44, C172, C182) flown, this happens to some extent or another. Flaps probably should make the nose balloon up in game
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Herra Tohtori

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Re: P-36 and applying flaps
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2014, 02:28:52 AM »

You have AOA lift and airspeed lift that you have to balance out to maintain level flight or a desired rae of climb/descent. The SUREST over time way to increase lift is to add power. If you change nothing else but add power the plane Will climb, even if the nose appears to be pointed slightly downwards sometimes. This is why pilots often say "use power for altitude"

The Quickest way to increase lift is by increasing the angle of attack(pitch). This points the nose up and the plane will start ballooning up. The problem with this is that if you change nothing else but increase AOA the plane will briefly climb, but will also gain much drag which will reduce the airspeed(and the lift generated by it), causing the plane to sink eventually. This is why pilots often say "use pitch for airspeed".

This is the overall result, yes.

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Now really, like I said before, you are balancing out the two sources of lift all the time but following the above "rules" helps people stay out of trouble.

There really is only one source of lift - the wing. However, there are three main factors affecting how much lift the wing produces (at a given altitude):

-airspeed (most important one, lift is proportional to square of airspeed)
-angle of attack (the easiest to control immediately, like you said)
-coefficient of lift (changing the shape of the wing with flaps, slats, or spoilers)


Since controlling angle of attack has much better response time than controlling airspeed, that is used for maneuvering the aircraft, in conjunction with using the throttles to maintain airspeed.

Drag of the aircraft is also dependant of similar parametres:

-airspeed (again, drag is approximately proportional to square of airspeed at typical reynolds numbers for aircraft)
-angle of attack (the attitude of aircraft relative to airflow)
-coefficient of drag (changing the shape of the aircraft with flaps, slats, spoilers, landing gear, radiator or cowling flaps)

So, since angle of attack controls drag in addition to lift, it can also be used to control airspeed - or, if you want to maintain airspeed while using higher angle of attack, you need to counter increased drag with more thrust.

This, of course, is why you need to add power when you're turning, in order to retain your airspeed and altitude. And also why there's a difference between transient and sustained turn performance - you can only sustain a turn if your aircraft's engine can provide enough thrust to counter the increased drag.

Technically speaking you must control both airspeed and angle of attack in conjunction to get the desired results. In a sustained climb or sustained descent, the reversal of "obvious" controls becomes apparent, and indeed the glideslope depends on engine power and airspeed depends on angle of attack, but that doesn't change the fact that the lift from wings is the primary source of controlling the aircraft's direction, whether the amount of lift is changed due to increased airspeed, angle of attack, or coefficient of lift.

The situation is slightly more complicated because in a descent, the aircraft is being accelerated by gravity and so it needs to counter that with some additional drag (opposite to a sustained climb, where the aircraft must compensate for gravity losses with additional engine power).

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In general aviation (I've never flown a P-36 unfortunately) if the pilot adds flaps this increased the AoA lift so the plane balloons up, and then slows down quickly, unless the pilot anticipates this and is ready with some nose-down pressure to prevent excessive ballooning. I'm not the most experienced pilot in the world by far but in each plane that I have (C152, DA20, PA28, PA44, C172, C182) flown, this happens to some extent or another. Flaps probably should make the nose balloon up in game

And they do exactly that, precisely as you would expect. Although, technically speaking the flaps increase the coefficient of lift, but the end result is that the wing produces more lift than aircraft's weight, so without the pilot reducing angle of attack, the aircraft has no choice but to go up.

That's exactly the reason why I think ManOWar's criticism of flaps in IL-2 is somewhat excessive. Clearly since all simulators are approximations of nature, it probably isn't perfectly accurate, but I think it's much better than ManOWar's comments would imply.
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WxTech

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Re: P-36 and applying flaps
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2014, 10:53:58 AM »

I read only the first page (apologies!), but in case it hasn't been mentioned...

Observe the action of the velocity vector indicator in Wonder Woman view.
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