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[Typhoon Ib]

Oh. hold on.
wasnt the Parliament (among other famous buildings) removed from the destructible buildings list? because nasty people would dare to bomb dat thing and step on the toes of sensitive people?

[vpmedia]

I like that we can discuss these issues so openly and in a friendly atmosphere.

The bottom line for me is that sooner or later we need a replacement for '46 and currently BoS can not replace it although everybody was hoping that it will. The devs should realize that there are issues and they need to fix them before BoS becomes another CoD. They also need to start building a serious community around their game. Currently all they do is to post on their own forums.

[Typhoon Ib]

i found this clip, where a street gets Bombed by heinkel.

(around 8:20+)
and if memory serves right - the houses that are destroyed "sink" into the bottom (like the hangars) and are replaced by rubble.

So maybe the reference point, "the Thing to beat" when it comes to Stalingrad City, is indeed not 1946 but Clod?

The Match does not begin evenly, as Stalingrad city starts off as a destroyed City, not a City in its best shape and form.
a thing i would love to see though.
Green spaces, trees, Parks, Parked cars and lorries well decorated houses, train station, industry park and loco factory to the north churning out locomotives and Waggons
and Barking dogs everywhere...
Stalingrad before "Stalingrad" might be a Place to enjoy flying over.

Incentives to abandon 1946!

agree on the CloDII assessment, and the Community Building.
Sad truth is, Players do not have time, nobody waits months and months for tools.
If you want to draw masses of people, you need strong arguments and incentives up front, and a big Playground for people to have fun on.

the WIP and early access thing is a slow buildup of the incentive.
It draws people, yes.
But only the people who are looking for the next Step, who are already trying to move on.
Not those who are happy with the modded game they might have [46].

If 777 were to draw the 1946(+mods?) Community from 1946 to BoS, they would need 50 more planes, a handsfull new maps + season variants and an end of the bickering.
because the people that mod the game are not interested in bickering.
Yet it can be ended with intense communication, which costs time, and time only. no server resources, no programmers no texture artists. Only people that know what happens in the office are needed. [see "questions for the devs" thread - we have so many questions! ]

The 1946 community i interact with [SAS] build their own stuff with the Tools at hand, and are pragmatic, "no-bullshit" kind of people.
Bickering, complaints and Bullshit is like Migraine. You might be in Paradise... with Migraine it still sucks. Anything sucks with Migraine.

Community building
So yes, The BoS team needs to stand tall, open its arms and welcome new players in an active manner.
Speaking, explaining what they do, why they do things, why some things are not as expected, why some choices were made.
and then they need to provide tools to play around with. Good and simple, or at least effective tools.

Two guys on all Combat flight Sim Forums (simHQ, Sim outhouse, mission4today, SAS...) doing communications, answering questions and explaining choices for 4 hours per day over a 3 month period.
That would help the complaining and bickering a Lot i gather. Team Fusion does that, and it regularly catches my interest when they show up with some tidbits.
It would actively show the 777 team embraces all new players.
That they are present to dispel worries, and lend a hand in getting you started

Because in BoS you need to build your own Playground, and that's NOT COOL.
what good are all the planes for, if there are no campaigns on or offline to fly them in.
Currently you get Bootcamp, QMB, and Online QMB/Airquake, and you have to rely on others from the community to provide that service too.

Sinking ship?
Every day that Passes.
every teaser about a skin viewer, posted on friday morning - and no releas on friday afternoon just in time for weekend is poison to BoS, it is a hope gone up... and down again.
The announcement that Dev diaries will be updated less frequent after release... is poison.
The announcement that no plans for the future exist... is poison.
(The news that a plan will be announced at the end of December does not balance that. People only remember bad news.)

It's all about communication - tell us what you got, tell us what you add to it, and tell us what you will add to it in the future.
Hardly any of us want a Roller-coaster relationship with BoS. We want clarity concerning today, and a road-map concerning the future.
No clarity? No road-map? No future.

Uncle Oleg and his team managed to remove doubts concerning the future of IL-2.
when i heard of the AEP, something made click in my head and i knew: Ah, now they are going around the world, and this is gonna be a Loooooong Journey.
And a Journey it was.
Holy shit what a trip!


all in all, the
"gimme 90 bucks up front, i'll give you a promise for a good game + tools in exchange"
is , yea... kind of... biting me in the ass, as i get a hand-me-down complicated and hard to use FMB [oh spare me the "it's powerfull!"] and am still waiting for the skin Viewer that i find utterly unnecessary in the first place.

[LuseKofte]

I like to make a final and last discussion for me in here. I have been getting a lot of hate in other communities for saying this and I give a rat ass if the same happens here.
None of the living breathing sims today are "bad" "pile of crap" "totally and utter shit"
To be honest I fly only COD campaigns now, online random shit , I do BOS at syndicate server, offline I do IL 2
We all got reasons to not like a game, but those are personal subjective opinions and should never be mentioned in a forum, most of them. I have totally lost respect to flight sim community in general. To me it is a pile of tumors waiting to feed on crap. I might be the wrong person to say this, but in here we manage to keep it pretty objective, and it is the only place remotely close to sustain that status.

[Typhoon Ib]

well you must have some horrible interactions then.

I still find decent Persons, and they are just as few and far between as ever.
I still find decent Pilots, but they are scattered across several platforms now.

I recognize, many Virtual pilots are stranded in a no-mans land between the stable (if whiney?) past, the deranged, split-up and twisted present, and an uncertain future.
You included, Le0ne - you mention often that you Play many flight Sims, appreciate them for what they are and give you. But This also indicates that , though you feel okay dancing in several skies, part of you wishes there was only One sky, and that we could unify the different worlds into one.

One sky, many Options, many Planes, many Players and enough room for many opinions to coexist peacefully.

does that sound like a dream you have?

[Uufflakke]

i found this clip, where a street gets Bombed by heinkel.

So maybe the reference point, "the Thing to beat" when it comes to Stalingrad City, is indeed not 1946 but Clod?

Nope. Also the comparison between BOS and COD does not work in my opinion. Just like the comparison between BOS and default IL2 (released 2001) does not work.
COD was released almost 4 years ago.
And... unfinished.
While BOS ís finished.

About BOS and 'The BoS team needs to stand tall, open its arms and welcome new players in an active manner' as you call it, well I wish, I really do wish, that was true but it is completely the opposite.
They seem to hide themselves in a bunker or dig themselves in a trench. Nobody but really nobody likes the unlocks. But the team perseveres and after some clever tips by members how to relatively quickly unlock stuff (by accelarating speed x8 on autopilot) the 777 team limits speed to x2 in the next update.
As stated by 777 we are not their target audience. I think they just hate us, or better said the founders with there constructive criticism. Nowadays it is not only constructive criticism anymore but pure frustration and hate. Which all got ventilated on other sites due to the fact topics get locked or members get banned on BOS forum. I am also aware of the fact that the usual suspects are around at other forums but it also says something that old time members with a lot of experience and knowledge about WWII flight sims and WWII history have disappeared completely.

And what are their future plans? Besides releasing the indispensable Ju-52. Which only got created by the way, after a lot, and I mean really a lot of requests.
What is their road map? If there is any.
A flight sim without any future plans (something to look forward too) and no real user participation (as I've mentioned somewhere else) is doomed to die in oblivion.

[Typhoon Ib]

Well, "officially" it has passed version 1.00x, so officially, BoS is finished.
Cod has passed version 1.00x too, so is finished.
[you could say that CloD is even more finished, since the Developping parties have stopped working on it]

But Both are being Pushed, by either the Devteam or an outside force.
So in fact both can change.
So neither is finished.

Nothing is set in stone...for either. Yet.
Keep that in mind - both Platforms are still changing, adding, improving...

but that's besides the Point.

If nobody has ever done a rubble city before, how can this first attempt be not good? How can this result not be "acceptable" at least,
or Who did actually do a better Job at a Rubble City to warrant a dismissal?
have not seen a better depiction of any such thing in any flight sim ever. But then again i have not seen every flight sim ever.

As far as i am concerned, this is a good job. Not movie quality like the Planes maybe, but still a good, believable fubared City.

[Dakpilot]

You need MORE than a believable city as far as I am concerned, you also need great(useable) framerates and no stutters on mid range equipment with trees you can collide and buildings with damage models...first create THAT city environment, then it can be fleshed out later,  give us that working core and the rest can be added/modded, It is not really fair to compare BoS to TF, TD or SaS the one thing a commercial venture does not have is, time = money, for the tasty small details, if you want to succeed/survive financially

Although it is now released, it is acknowledged by Devs to be unfinished in the current state, when features such as ME Dserver, mod activator and skins are added, hopefully this or early next year then a fresh look at a completed but embryonic release can be properly made, all flight sims are dependant to a certain amount on their community, until the features that make the community interact are available, it is not really worth judgement or comparisons to long released/modded titles

Cheers Dakpilot

[tomoose]

I hope other possible flight sim devs are taking notes over the whole ClOD and BOS saga.  They seem to be poster-children for how not to introduce a new game. 
As with any game it comes down to personal preferences (i.e. what you like).  Everybody has an opinion on what should or should not be in a game.

I always look for immersion and that means certain details to me.  It may mean something entirely different to someone else.

I still believe the IL2 franchise is a good model to learn from for future sims.  There's a reason it's lasted so long and is still popular. 

I think Team Daedelos (spelling?) have also done a good job of providing "extras" but also managing expectations.  Managing expectations has go to be one of the toughest parts of the dev world, particularly with the nit-picky crowd of flight sim enthusiasts.  TD have provided respectable updates and cemented their reputation.  The community is awaiting their next effort but noone (that I'm aware of) is beating down their doors or engaging in flamewars online.  I believe that's because when they do deliver they provide a polished/tested product and they seem to do a good job of "managing expectations".  Perhaps that is where ClOD and BOS dropped the ball........expectations?

[Dakpilot]

TD has done a great job, which everyone is thankful for, however it is a very unusual one, in that it is officially sanctioned but entirely free and not subject to any commercial restrictions.
I am sure many would have been happy to pay for the updates, but that would have put a very different spin on history. In a way TD and to a lesser extent TF have spoiled us by having access to great content without any regard to the actual cost of providing it

CloD and BoS have had very different launch issues, CloD went bankrupt halfway through development due to budget/time overruns and backers pulling funding and the lead devs abandoning the project, forcing it to be pushed out unfinished and with another team (Ilya &Co) trying to sort out the mess...the rest is history, even though TF have done an outstanding job fixing up the "grand design" it will always remain a financial and commercial disaster, not saying it is a bad game now, but the accountants bottom line is the only one that counts.
BoS on the other hand has different problems, the core engine of the game works to the most part very well out of the box on release, when the later parts come, better judgement can be made, the issues are about gameplay/options whether these, hated by some, issues will outweigh the underlying sim, will be seen over the next few months.

The main problem seems to be the niche market and lack of budget to produce a "complete" sim from a large enough Team on release to keep everyone happy, but then, even IL-2 on initial release was not what we have come to enjoy, it was just released in a different climate and time, and revolutionary enough to have time to grow into what IL-2 1946 became

Cheers Dakpilot

[Typhoon Ib]

okay, i get what you mean by "don't even judge BoS" "dont even compare i double dare you..."

However, can you tell me how " the features that make the community interact are available" might change Stalingrad City in itself and,
via map modding,
make it into what you specifically want it to be, for Stalingrad City to be really good and detailed to boot?
You think someone somewhere will rework the map, maybe?

i see the FMB useful in there, but a FMB is not enough.. all it does is generate large mission files if you pour Tons of detail into Stalingrad City --> need for modding the map.

anyway. Next Week is Christmas, so a lot of negative vibes are inbound for me personally.
i shall refrain from dropping any Napalm in the BoS Section till that (piece of CAKE) day, and its depressive fallout are over.

sort of, kind of "see you next year, you hakuna matatas!"

[LuseKofte]

I have lost all respect toward CLOD community and BOS community. I hardly touch any of them. It is Banana all over again with all it´s ugly faces like arrogance, intolerance, and besserwisser´s.
And it is the community I talk about, Devs are a totally other matter. I am not involving that in this statement. What the fantastic pilots flying COD says about those flying BOS. And the bitchy way they judge BOS, I have grown sick of it. I fly both and are degrades to crap for it.
I respect all not liking the game, that oppose unlocks and all the other stuff, I have absolutely no problem with it.
But this I have a friend that is a pilot and they say BOS is crap and COD is good.
I flown cod since release of the game, it got good FM but absolutely no feel of physics, very good and complex DM , BOS the opposite, Very good physics but , less complex and light feel to the planes. Less complex DM if at all, sometimes I feel IL2 got better DM in some of the planes. Someone like the daughter and some the mother, I wish people can dislike in silence as in other game genres , just leave it