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[Marjak]

Hello,

I`ve just found this thread, so my response is a little bit late maybe.

Yes, the MK 108 is very powerful and poorly undermodeled in Il-2. After a brief look in the weapon classfiles the stock game has
  gunproperties.bullet[0].power = 0.042F;
gunproperties.bullet[1].power = 0.054F;

so 42gr of explosive for the HE and 54gr for the Minengeschoss. UP-3 has changed this to only one bullet (the Minengeschoss, I think)
gunproperties.bullet[0].power = 0.046F;

so 46gr of explosives, (but they inceased the value for kalibr; But I`ve found noone yet who was able to explain me what the kalibr entry is good for).
Well, according to the data I have the Minengeschoss Ausf. C should have 72gr and the imroved Ausf. A 82gr, that`s some 33- 52% more explosive then the highest value in the stock game.

Changing the values to 82gr would make it a true one-hit weapon.

Cheers

Marjak

[Typhoon Ib]

how about you "give it a shot" and test?

[Ass Eagle]

With the Minengeschoss The Germans estimated 2~3 hits to knock down a B17.  15~20 with the MG151. Now it's estimated that 2% of shots hit there target for the average shooter, and with slow firing rate at limited ammo, you can see quickly how the Mark 108 becomes a "up close" weapon. Deviatating non the less, and a major reason for frontal attacks on 17 formations.

Personally I'd take 2 x HS 20mm cannons.

[SAS~Storebror]

it's estimated that 2% of shots hit there target for the average shooter

WHY do you always keep telling such crap and refuse to name your sources?
2% hitrate on a B-17. Tell me more.

Best regards - Mike

[Ass Eagle]

it's estimated that 2% of shots hit there target for the average shooter

WHY do you always keep telling such crap and refuse to name your sources?
2% hitrate on a B-17. Tell me more.

Best regards - Mike

Its in the German pilot handbook. Or if you don't have one... read this: 

http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~josephkennedy/German_Pilot_Perspective.htm

Here is a great site for general knowledge "if you ask it, they will come":
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php


Aerial defensive/offensive acurracies, effectiveness etc.
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/effective-gunners-planes-13515.html

[SAS~Storebror]

Well, at least you tried.

Link 2 leads to a whole website, that's your source for the 2% claim? Awww.... well...
Link 3's thread has no backup for your 2% claim. Scratch it.

Link no. 1 tells this (besides a whole lot of unrelated stuff):

Analysis of gun camera film revealed that the average German pilot scored hits with only 2 percent of the rounds fired, thus on average, 1000 rounds were fired to score the 20 hits required.

Unfortunately the given references of that page are:

Fw 190 Aces of the Western Front by John Weal. Osprey Aircraft of the Aces No.9
Fighter Pilot Tactics by Mike Spick Stein and Day Publishers 1983
Aircraft Versus Aircraft by Norman L.R. Franks Macmillan Publishing Company 1986

In none of these books I've been able to find that quote, and let's be honest: We all know what those guncam films look like. I'm yet to face someone who explains to me how it should be possible to reliably calculate a hitrate of a 6-gun/cannon armed plane on them.
I'd treat that "source" as another "estimation" one, like all those sites stating "the average hitrate was estimated to be in the range of 2-5%" without real sources.
Your call.

Best regards - Mike

[Marjak]

Have you read Hartmann's book? Hartmann admits he was a bad shot. His tactic was to get close. So close that it cause him to force land over a dozen times due to debris hitting his plane. About muzzle velocity and calibre.. I'd take a HV .273 over a .303 any day

Well, I have read Hartmann`s book and he said that he didn`t consider himself to be an exceptional good shot. On the other hand there is this quotation from Günther Rall as far as I remember who said: "There were so many young pilots coming to us to the front who where hitting absolutely nothing in the air, that Hartmann with his ability to hit from far distance distinguished himself form the others immediately.
And of course it was his tactic to get in close but in the beginning he adopted it primarily to shot down the heavy armoured Il-2`s. You had to get in close because otherwise the armour of the Shturmovik would simply absorb the MG 151/20. So pilots were advised to open fire under 120 Meter. Later he realized that it very much suited his fighting style in generall and that he safes a lot of ammo as well. But in the beginning while flying Kaczmarek for Rossmann he was shooting at long ranges like his flight leader. It was Krupinski who always told him to get in even closer (he flew as his wingman until February or March of 43 as far as I remember. But it`s all in the book. (I`m really looking foward to 4.13 and the bullet energy reduction btw)

And convergence in a 109 was not a factor at all, all three weapons in the nose.

Cheers

Marjak

[Typhoon Ib]

That first website is full of [american] propaganda and full of description.
I would have expected some numbers or charts.

The second one leads to a forum index.
Useless to back the 2% claim.

3rd does not even open.


================================
You were repeatedly asked to back your claims, and THIS is the best you can do?
This is useless Spam and destroys your credibility - nothing else.
I mean: if those are the places you go to find hard info, nobody will listen to you in the future.

[Marjak]

I don`t understand the animosity towards Ice Eagle. I`ve found the 2% hit chance in the first post somewhere.

And did he claim something? Maybe I just missed it.

Cheers

[Ass Eagle]

I don`t understand the animosity towards Ice Eagle. I`ve found the 2% hit chance in the first post somewhere.

And did he claim something? Maybe I just missed it.

Cheers

From the first link (post 52):

 "The LUFTWAFFE estimated that it took an average of 20 hits from the 20mm cannon to destroy a B-17. Analysis of gun camera film revealed that the AVERAGE GERMAN PILOT scored hits with only 2 percent of the rounds fired, thus on average, 1000 rounds were fired to score the 20 hits required."

3rd link opens fine. But the other sites is if somebody wants to investigate further. Thanks.

[Typhoon Ib]

With the Minengeschoss The Germans estimated 2~3 hits to knock down a B17.  15~20 with the MG151. Now it's estimated that 2% of shots hit there target for the average shooter, and with slow firing rate at limited ammo, you can see quickly how the Mark 108 becomes a "up close" weapon. Deviatating non the less, and a major reason for frontal attacks on 17 formations.

Personally I'd take 2 x HS 20mm cannons.

here he claimed it.

and the animosity exists because storebror wants to see numbers, charts, studies, facts - something he can work with, and they are not provided as asked.
and it happened twice in this thread.

I also heard the 2-4% number in the past somewhere, but as soon as marjak checked the game's files, and offered some thoughts on the subject this thread moved into a modding direction.
and when Upping the destructive force of weapons, we need numbers we can not simply put BK-50 shells into the 108.
hence the need and request for facts.

====================
I personally believe it is completely impossible to properly track shot vs hit stats for WWII, and that even "facts" as presented by studies and research remain vague.
But then again i do not put numbers anywhere - because i believe numbers must remain inaccurate.

[Typhoon Ib]

I don`t understand the animosity towards Ice Eagle. I`ve found the 2% hit chance in the first post somewhere.

And did he claim something? Maybe I just missed it.

Cheers

From the first link:

 "The LUFTWAFFE estimated that it took an average of 20 hits from the 20mm cannon to destroy a B-17. Analysis of gun camera film revealed that the AVERAGE GERMAN PILOT scored hits with only 2 percent of the rounds fired, thus on average, 1000 rounds were fired to score the 20 hits required."

3rd link opens fine. But the other sites is if somebody wants to investigate further. Thanks.

Not good enough.
where was that written down.
where is that luftwaffe study.
The paper, the book, the ... whatever.

not something wriitten down by an american in 2005.
something written down by a german in 1944 please.