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Author Topic: Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine  (Read 6697 times)

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pugo3

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Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine
« on: February 06, 2015, 04:24:44 PM »

Second attempt to request this, as I erred in my first posting, unkowingly violating the rules by including another aircraft that had already been requested [searched after my request was deleted, my bad]

My request is for a production version of the Ta183 Design II with the HeS 011 engine, as the present game includes the prototype version powered by the Jumo 004 which was only intended for the first 2 prototypes. This leaves the aircraft under powered, especially when adding the weight increase incorporated by the original game developers 'fix' of the tail unit weakness they discovered. This would allow a better representation of the aircraft's potential performance, and would allow one to view it's abilities matching up with early Soviet and Allied designs.

[Note to moderator: I have searched the forum and found a posting related to the Ta 183 Design III, which was a alternate design with a more conventional tail unit, as there were serious concerns regarding whether or not the radical swept tail of Design II would succeed. I am not referring to this different aircraft, but the same (Design II) that is in the game, only upgrading to the actual engine designated by the designers and slated for the production models. I found no such request in searching this forum.]
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RealDarko

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Re: Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2015, 01:42:52 AM »

Always tought our version was the one equipped with the He S011. Was not the Jumo the fire prone engine? Anyway, is right that the Ta183 was intended to use the new engine, but as the war ended it never received it. The first test airframes were designed with the Jumo 004 in mind. Here a extract from Luft46.com

In late 1942, Focke-Wulf engineer Hans Multhopp headed up a design team that started aerodynamic studies for a new turbojet fighter. This culminated in 1945 as a fighter project known as "Huckebein" (a cartoon raven that traditionally makes trouble for others),

Here Huckebein: :P



Also known as Project V (Project VI in some references) or Design II at Focke-Wulf and later to be given the designation Ta 183. The Ta 183 had a short, squat fuselage with the air intake passing under the cockpit and proceeding to the rear where the single He S 011 turbojet was located, although the first three prototypes were to be powered by Jumo 004B jet engines. A provision was made in the early studies for the aircraft to be equipped with a 1000 kg (2205 lbs) thrust rocket engine to assist interception duties, with the fuel for a 200 second rocket burn being located in underwing drop tanks. The wings were very thin, swept back at 40 degrees and were mounted in the mid-fuselage position. A tapered main wing spar constructed of two duraluminum I-beams with steel flanges formed a torque box, with the attachment at the fuselage consisting of a single bolt. The wing structure was completed by adding bonded wooden ribs with a plywood covering. Each wing panel contained six fuel cells totaling 1565 liters (345 gallons). The huge fin was swept back at 60 degrees, with the tailplane mounted on the top of the fin. The tailplane also exhibited considerable dihedral. Wing elevons and the rudder provided control, the tailplane control surfaces only being used for trimming. The flaps and landing gear were operated hydraulically. The pilot sat in a pressurized cockpit with a bubble canopy which provided excellent all-around vision. Four MK 108 30mm cannon was envisioned for the production Ta 183 armament, also a bomb load of 500 kg (1100 lbs) could be carried. This could include one SD or SC 500 bomb, one BT 200 bomb, five SD or SC bombs and even a Rb 20/30 camera. The weapons load would be carried in the equipment space in the bottom of the fuselage and thus partially protrude about halfway from the fuselage.
       On Febuary 27 and 28, 1945, the Emergency Fighter Competition conference was held by the OKL (High Command of the Luftwaffe), and the Ta 183 was chosen to be developed and produced. There were to be sixteen Versuchs (experimental test series) aircraft: the Ta 183 V1-V3 to be powered by the Jumo 004B turbojet, pending delivery of the He S 011 jet engine, the Ta 183 V4-V14 as 0-series preproduction aircraft and V15-V16 as static test aircraft. The maiden flight of the first aircraft was planned for May/June of 1945, and was to test both the Design II and Design III tail configuration. The first production aircraft were scheduled to be completed by October 1945, but no examples of the Ta 183 were completed because on April 8, 1945 British troops captured the Focke-Wulf facilities.

Here a small extract from Combatsim.

One HeS 011 of 2,866 lbs. thrust was the main power but a HWK 509 bi-fuel liquid fuel rocket of 4,409 lbs. thrust was to be used additionally in the interceptor role adding its boost for 3.5 minutes. (No idea what they're talking about concerning that rocket engine unless those are some type of JATO pack).

Here a schematic view with the new engine.

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RealDarko

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Re: Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2015, 07:17:40 AM »

Heinkel HeS 011 specifications:

Type: Turbojet
Length: 3450 mm (11 ft 3¾ in)
Diameter: 875 mm (34½ in)
Dry weight: 950 kg (2,094 lb)
Components
Compressor: Diagonal + three stage axial
Combustors: 16 chambers
Turbine: Two stage axial.
Performance
Maximum thrust: 12.01 kN (2,700 lbf) at 10,000 rpm.
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 12.63 N/kg (1.29 lbf/lb)

Compared to the Jumo 004:

Type: Turbojet
Length: 3.86 m (152 in)
Diameter: 81 cm (32 in)
Dry weight: 719 kg (1,585 lb)
Components
Compressor: 8-stage axial compressor
Combustors: Can-type, 6
Turbine: Single-stage
Performance
Maximum thrust: 8.8 kN (1,980 lbf) at 8,700 rpm
Overall pressure ratio: 3.14:1
Specific fuel consumption: 1.39 N/(N·hr)
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 1.25 (12.2 N/kg)
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aftershok88

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Re: Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2015, 10:10:46 AM »

Oh yeah ! that would be a great idea !
This would allow me to go faster than 350kph with the X-4 rockets...

+1
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pugo3

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Re: Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2015, 02:28:31 PM »

Oh brother, I may well have been mistaken re this post; I have been very involved with outside projects these past years and haven't kept up with the game as I would have liked. I had read a post on the Ubisoft forum that stated the Jumo 004 was used in the in game version, but recently reviewing the game  Aircraft Guide, discovered that the HeS 011 is stated in the description specs! So I will modify this request to only apply if somehow the game version is the Jumo 004, and the Guide includes the production version, if this was an unintentional oversight. However, if the game version is in fact modeled with the HeS 011, please disregard this request [obviously]

I would add parenthetically that the TD team may as well dump the aircraft entirely from the game if the game version does include the HeS 011, as reviewing the 'Il-2 Compare' graphs, one quickly can see the grossly inferior performance compared to the Me 262, and immediately it becomes apparent that the aircraft would have been summarily cancelled based on this. A shame, as I have flown the HeS 011 version in an older software that was very true to the projected performance, testing the aircraft in real time for ROC, speed at altitude, etc., and I can say as projected, it was pure joy to fly. I can't imagine lugging X-4 missels to B-29 altitude in the current beast in the game.

Sorry for not posting this correctly - didn't think a simple thrust change merited blueprints, photos, etc., and as sources vary as to the projected thrust of the HeS 011, it would be at the discretion of the modders to decide.

p3
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RealDarko

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Re: Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2015, 03:40:41 PM »

Is true that the Heinkel HeS011 appear as the instaled engine in the "in game" encyclopedia. IIRC the devs found that the tail will not be able to resist speeds over 700 km/h so they tunned the tail and plane somehow, so not sure the "projected" specifications you tried were even feasible.
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Herra Tohtori

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Re: Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2015, 05:27:46 PM »

Always tought our version was the one equipped with the He S011. Was not the Jumo the fire prone engine?


The early variants (Jumo 004B) were prone to fires, flame-outs, and other failures because the fuel injection was basically controlled completely manually by the pilot, and too large changes too fast would either starve the engine causing flameout, or flood it with fuel causing compressor stalls, damage to the turbine/compressor blades, or other components, and the damage would then lead to a fuel or oil fire in the engine. The BMW 003 engine had similar issues.

The Jumo 004D variant added a two-stage fuel injection system and a fuel control unit, which meant that pilot could command full power and the system would then increase fuel pressure along with the RPM, until the engine was running at full power. Similarly it would prevent flame-outs (in theory) by spooling the engine down gradually, even if the throttle was moved abruptly.

The 004D was ready for production at the end of WW2, so that would have been used in some new jet prototypes, like the Ta 183. So it makes sense it's not as fire-happy as the earlier German jets.


As far as the more powerful Heinkel jet engine goes, the He 162C and 162D variants should already be using the HeS 011A engine, but I'm not sure if that is the case in 1946.
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Spinnetti

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Re: Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2015, 06:26:39 PM »

. This culminated in 1945 as a fighter project known as "Huckebein" (a cartoon raven that traditionally makes trouble for others),

Neat, didn't know that. but as a kid we had a very old Max und Moritz book that I recognize in your pictures... Doesn't the bird eat the kid? :)
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RealDarko

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Re: Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2015, 01:34:13 AM »


As far as the more powerful Heinkel jet engine goes, the He 162C and 162D variants should already be using the HeS 011A engine, but I'm not sure if that is the case in 1946.

It's the case:



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SAS~Storebror

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Re: Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2015, 01:58:52 AM »

We have 4 planes in IL-2 using the HeS 011 Engine:
Ta-183: HeS 011
Ho-229 A2: HeS 011
He-162C: HeS 011A
He-162D: HeS 011A

There are a couple of differences between those engines in their engine model data, most notable maybe is the thrust (950 for Jumo 004, 1180 for HeS 011A, 1300 for HeS 011), the maximum power setting (100% for Jumo, 110% for HeS) and engine acceleration (0.15 for Jumo, 3.2 for HeS).
How much the engines are prone to catch fire from rapid throttle movement is dealt with in each aircraft's java code, which means the a fire prone Jumo 004 in one aircraft doesn't necessarily have to be fire prone in another.

Best regards - Mike
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RealDarko

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Re: Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2015, 02:32:14 AM »

We have 4 planes in IL-2 using the HeS 011 Engine:
Ta-183: HeS 011
Ho-229 A2: HeS 011
He-162C: HeS 011A
He-162D: HeS 011A

There are a couple of differences between those engines in their engine model data, most notable maybe is the thrust (950 for Jumo 004, 1180 for HeS 011A, 1300 for HeS 011), the maximum power setting (100% for Jumo, 110% for HeS) and engine acceleration (0.15 for Jumo, 3.2 for HeS).
How much the engines are prone to catch fire from rapid throttle movement is dealt with in each aircraft's java code, which means the a fire prone Jumo 004 in one aircraft doesn't necessarily have to be fire prone in another.

Best regards - Mike

Thanks for the info!
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Herra Tohtori

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Re: Ta 183 with HeS 011 production engine
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 10:15:25 AM »

How much the engines are prone to catch fire from rapid throttle movement is dealt with in each aircraft's java code, which means the a fire prone Jumo 004 in one aircraft doesn't necessarily have to be fire prone in another.


Interesting - I would have assumed that to be tied to the engine classes rather than the aircraft in general.
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