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Author Topic: Weekly progress report  (Read 127827 times)

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Stainless

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Re: Weekly progress report
« Reply #216 on: January 23, 2018, 02:01:10 AM »

BTG's are just one of the formats I can support, I need to make this as user friendly as possible.

It is one of the big problems in 3D for me. You get an engine or a tool that only supports one 3D file format. So you have to find converters.

This has a knock on effect to the whole tool chain. Suddenly, doing something that should be trivial becomes a nightmare.

You can see it in IL2. People struggling with plugins trying to get something they have spent many hours working on into the game.

When it comes to terrain data, I am struggling to find a really good data source. I have found lot's of satellite data and lot's of tools to work with them, but none of them are without problems.

At the moment I am working with a 10M resolution database for the gross scenery, mixed with data from google\bing\yandex\gaode\baidu when available.

But even those throw up errors. For example I grabbed maps for the UK and Europe in 10 degree of latitude\longitude chunks.

When I put them together I found they overlapped by several pixels. In my test it was about 25 miles of terrain got duplicated.

I have to make it spot on if modders are going to use it.

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Pursuivant

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Re: Weekly progress report
« Reply #217 on: January 25, 2018, 09:03:31 AM »

I will say there's few things in favor of FG's scenery, that there's no other sim, WWI era or otherwise, that has captured the look of the Somme Valley.    Most sims make the river as a snaking strip of water.

I'm way out of my depth here, but my problems with flight sim terrain are, 1) the mapping algorithms are "one size fits all" rather than being scaled to the "density" of terrain features in a particular area or what you actually want to do with the map, 2) mapping algorithms prioritize relatively crude elevation data over other map features which can be much more important to gameplay.

Broad swaths of more or less accurate major natural terrain features are fine for high level flying, but for ground attack and "slow and low" flight, the "human terrain" and minor natural terrain features become more important than the mountains in the distance.

Can I land in that pasture without wrecking my plane? If so, can I avoid that line of telephone poles if I try to take off again? Is the ditch deep and wide enough that my plane will slide into it, rather than over it, when I belly land? Is the mud so deep in that bog that my plane will flip and break my neck if I accidentally make a wheels-down landing? Can I get a decent shot at that train hiding in the railway cut? Are the treelines on each side of that road far enough apart than I can land on the road or make a low-level strafing pass along its length without removing my wingtips?

I propose that, at least for maps of built-up or "subtle" terrain defined by minor shifts in elevation and closely-spaced, narrow, terrain features (e.g., treelines, hedgerows, or minor rivers), it is more logical to prioritize "linear" terrain like streams, roads, railway cuts, and property lines, and "point" features like ponds and town centers, over elevation. You make those features look and act like they're supposed to using algorithms (mostly simple fractals for natural features), and then you fill in the elevation information around them.

For example, imagine a simple map where you've got a railroad cutting straight through treeless steppe terrain linking two towns, with a road running next to the railroad which mostly follows the contour of the terrain. First, you define the railroad object, say that it can't be any wider than about 5 meters per line including embankments and that its slope can't be anything greater than ~2%. The roadway gets generated as a mathematical object which automatically creates cuts and embankments based on SRTM data.

For the road, you do something similar, but accept that you can have a greater slope before you must make cuts or embankments and that it can curve more sharply to follow the terrain. You generate it as another object which uses essentially the same processes as for the railroad. Anyone "driving" along the road will find that it "behaves" like it should.

For the towns, you place two or more base points on the map and "grow" the town's limits using a suitable fractal pattern. As long as there is solid ground, towns will grow organically, based on population, along roads and rivers, and will go around steep hills and woods before growing "into" them. Once you've got the "city limits" of each town, you can generate minor roads within it. Once you've got minor roads, you can generate property lines and then use a different algorithm to generate buildings and other features on the property. Tweak the algorithms slightly to get settlement patterns, property lines, and building patterns for different cultures and periods. Big rectangles and squares with widely spaced farmsteads for the American Midwest, centralized villages surrounded by long skinny farm fields for Eastern Europe, terraced hillside rice fields for Java.

Still other algorithms could be used to generate the shape of treelines, power grids, minor water features, drainage ditches, etc.

Once you've defined your hydrography, transport networks, settlement patterns, and major landmarks, only then do you use STRM 10m data to "fill in the gaps."

For wilderness areas, you can sort of go the opposite direction to generate minor but important objects. Start with the SRTM data, but assume that there will be significant height variation within each 10m based on the sort of terrain you're modeling. For example, for swampland that's 1m ASL on average, you could assume that you've actually got slow-moving streams every X meters (break out an algorithm for that) with +/-1 m random variations in the height of the terrain between them. The +1 m areas get generated as hummocks, the -1m areas get generated as water/rushes.

Finally, you could have "point centered" features which override SRTM data within the areas they cover. That way you can recreate historical coastlines and treelines, and add or remove anthropogenic features like towns or reservoirs based on time period.

The bad news is that datasets which map the sort of linear and point features I'm talking about are either propriety or don't exist. The good news is that terrain generation algorithms are open source, readily available, and fairly simple. The potentially good news is that you could scan or carefully photograph a paper roadmap (or, maybe even topographic maps or more abstract maps like maps of railroad networks) and use image recognition software to identify the meaning of the various "lines on the map." You could then overlay that data over 10m SRTM data to get more or less accurate maps for areas of interest. Using latitude and longitude coordinates for known "point features" you can accurately place SRTM maps without overlap.

Fans could create linear and point feature generation algorithms to expand the database of existing terrain types. Aditionally, they can import textures and digitize data from historical maps. This would quickly provide a decent database for modern populated areas as well as historical maps of areas of interest.

Perhaps this is all too "pie in the sky" to be workable, but it would represent a novel approach towards flight sim terrain generation. And, as long as the "bare bones" are in place, it might solve some problems.
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Stainless

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Re: Weekly progress report
« Reply #218 on: January 26, 2018, 02:19:45 AM »

My plan is ....

1) Base database from the entire world created from mixed data sets.
        Mix of open source terrain databases and images

2) Procedural generation for terrain areas not hand detailed
        Not using fractals as they are too random, using physically based models. So rivers flow down hill, roads have pitch limits, rail tracks pitch limits, plants biospheres

3) Tools to detail areas freely available and simple to use
        Import map data from multiple sources, combine into detail textures which define roads, rail, rivers, forest, blah, blah


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Stainless

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Re: Weekly progress report
« Reply #219 on: January 31, 2018, 07:47:58 AM »

Well the airport converter is coming along. Still a LOT of detailing to do, but I already have some nice results.

 Antwerp Derne



2D map



3D view



And the same for Asmara International








What 3D file format do most of you use?

The tool is going to output a 3D scene you can load in a 3D editor. I would like to have instanced meshes if possible. By that I mean that I output 1 mesh for a windsock and then have multiple instances of the same mesh in the file.

Anyone know of a good format to use for that?


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Stainless

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Re: Weekly progress report
« Reply #220 on: January 31, 2018, 09:38:59 AM »

Now with windsocks  :P



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Unca-Fester

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Re: Weekly progress report
« Reply #221 on: January 31, 2018, 02:03:24 PM »

Most of my stuff is either in .ac or a small amount of Open Plane Studio's export of .obj

  They both will open in Bender and AC3D.
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Stainless

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Re: Weekly progress report
« Reply #222 on: February 01, 2018, 02:28:13 AM »

Both of those are easy to export, though both will have duplicate geometry for objects.

No mesh instancing
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Pursuivant

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Re: Weekly progress report
« Reply #223 on: February 01, 2018, 11:56:14 AM »

Very nice!

Could I put in a plea for including a month/year data field for various airfield features as well as an add/change/remove option?

The month/year feature would allow fans to more easily "replace" modern equipment and airfield layout with historical features. The add/change/remove option would allow fans to add fictional (or future) features with the "add" or "change" options, or simulate loss of airfield features due to damage, malfunction, etc. with "remove."

Possibly, maybe, fields to set additional conditions associated with a given airfield (possibly with provision to set by day/month/year):

Runway and taxiway conditions - ice, wet (snow/rain), mud, dust, FLOT risk, rough surface, bomb damage, fire, damaged/destroyed aircraft on runway, limited visibility (fog/blowing snow/smoke), hostile aircraft in area, clear.

Nationality (determines friendly/hostile/neutral status during wartime/cold war)

Airport type and landing restrictions - public civilian/private civilian/military force (type), open/closed/closed to civilian/closed to foreign, emergency only - Filters which allow the number of available airports to be further limited based plane and pilot type. Also sets up options for different interactions with ATC and different trigger events based on aircraft and pilot type - like "do not land" warnings from a closed military airfield, followed by interceptors being scrambled, AAA defenses being triggered, etc.

ATC control radius

METARS info available? Historically, forecast data wasn't universally available.

Provision to include more and different historical landing and navigation aids - RDF, signs which identify the airport from the air, fires lit at each end of the runway, etc.

Blackout/no blackout - Determines whether airport lights are off at night by default.

Fuel types available

Repair available?

Medical aid available?

Ammunition types available
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Stainless

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Re: Weekly progress report
« Reply #224 on: February 07, 2018, 05:03:38 AM »

The tool is coming on nicely.



I have added support for runway markings, four classes. No markings, Visual, Non-precision , and precision.




But I am seeing weird stuff.



Do they really paint the grass?

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Pursuivant

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Re: Weekly progress report
« Reply #225 on: February 07, 2018, 03:10:13 PM »

Do they really paint the grass?

In some cases, yes:

http://landinglines.com/

Maybe not for improvised or temporary military runways, but it's not uncommon for modern glider and light aircraft runways to either have painted markings or white synthetic markers which serve the same function.

Also, historically (1920s-40s) some grass airfields had a "baseball diamond" shape with the hangars at the point of the diamond, the name of the airfield outlined in white stones or paint (to allow identification from the air) and the landing strip limit lines marked in white stones or paint. I can't find a picture at the moment, so you'll have to trust me. :)

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Stainless

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Re: Weekly progress report
« Reply #226 on: February 08, 2018, 02:09:57 AM »

I trust you  ;)

At the moment I am navigating the mess of landing lights.

Found a UK standards agency document on runway markings, and most of the runways I have looked at are illegal in UK.  ;D

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Stainless

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Re: Weekly progress report
« Reply #227 on: February 08, 2018, 08:01:12 AM »

Well got the start of ALSF 2 in and I suddenly realised I am going to have to rethink my renderer completely.

I had planned to support about 128 lights, no I estimate I am going to have to support about 4096.......

Tiled forward lighting maybe........



hmmm image seems to have disappeared again
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