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Author Topic: 4.13.1 is released  (Read 33207 times)

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flyingfisch

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Re: 4.13.1 is released
« Reply #108 on: April 12, 2016, 01:47:40 PM »

GJE52: I see now that I popped into a pretty heated discussion with a lot of back story that I'm not familiar with. Let me try to answer your two questions.

I'm just a flight sim enthusiast, somewhat new to the il2 scene. I have not made any il 2 mods, though I have made mods for other flight simulators like flight gear. I am also a web developer by trade (though I also dabble in other disciplines like hardware hacking and writing console apps), and contribute somewhat regularly to open source projects. I am also a huge fan of free and open source software, and an very happy that il2 runs in wine since I only have Linux on my box.

As for what I want to achieve: coming from the open source side of modding with flight gear, where practically everything is on github and GPLed, I was slightly put off by the fact that much of the modding tools and mods themselves both here and at 1C/TD are  distributed in zip files on media fire or an equivalent, and that the source code repositories are not public. Not having a public version control repository discourages collaboration in my opinion, and it also allows great mods to be lost when the modder's hard drive is in some way compromised. I've seen that happen both here and elsewhere.

Anyway, I'm starting to go off on a tangent. The main thing is that I'm curious why there isn't a public source control repo since I think it would greatly help the future of il 2. I don't really have any intentions to achieve anything though, because I don't really care what you guys want to do with your code. You own it, after all.

Like I said, I am just curious, is all. ;)

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LuseKofte

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Re: 4.13.1 is released
« Reply #109 on: April 12, 2016, 03:35:30 PM »

Personally I learned to enjoy stock game from 4,12 and onwards. I have learned to just accept TD policy toward modding society as life irony. Anyway I always have one stock latest install and 2 or 3 others modded ones.
There is never going to be any agreement between any fraction within IL 2 community , so I just try to enjoy everyone´s work and leave it like that   
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Aioros

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Re: 4.13.1 is released
« Reply #110 on: April 12, 2016, 05:48:16 PM »

I'm somewhat  agree with flyingfisch, although the last time that I tried to develop something was around 2005, It was for Combat Flight Simulator 3, one thing that I always liked about the microsoft sims was their release of an SDK (Software Development Kit) it really gives the oportunity to inspire and give directions to the new or wannabe modelers and modders (like me  ;D).

Maybe a good set of things to keep the development of the simulator and increase the number of new modders (New blood is essential) and reduce the "fragmentation" would be.

1-Keep the development of new mods with 4.12.2 as a definitive base.

2-Support initiatives like CUP with a strong stability and ease of use in mind...for example I like the vpmedia's approach of his VP Modpack, where only high quality mods are included the FPS are great, and  the old campaigns work without a glitch. (with this all the users are unified and nobody is left behind (specially those with low end pc's), a strong user base is the key, to win popularity and bring new blood to the simulator, and maybe new tools.

3-This maybe difficult, but maybe it's time to start documenting and making public via tutorials and well writen documents, how to make a MOD (with the latest techniques and standars for the sim) with the guidelines of SAS, with this specially the younger ones will keep the ball rolling.

And for the problem with TD...Let them be...If the ways of reason, unity and greater good didn't get them no thing in this world will convice them of effective cooperation.

Man I been reading this forum from the shadows for more than two years, and I'm convinced of two things, one...we have really a lot of great and smart people here in SAS, two cooperation can achieve a lot of things. As a community we must to stay strong and united...for me the enemy is not Team Daidalos is the close architecture philosophy that some software companies use to get even the last penny of our pockets...we must keep Il2 1946 alive or the future will be that of minitransactions, and unmoddable simulators where they even will charge us for the gas of our Messerschmitts our Mustangs and our Yak's.
 
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MrMojok

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Re: 4.13.1 is released
« Reply #111 on: April 12, 2016, 10:08:40 PM »

Sorry to interrupt, but who is TD exactly? Is that who "took over" on IL-2 after Oleg moved on, or something like that?


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SAS~Storebror

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Re: 4.13.1 is released
« Reply #112 on: April 12, 2016, 11:23:05 PM »

Okay I'll try to answer a couple of questions that came up during the past 12 hours:

4.12.2 as a base: Done. That's exactly what we're doing.
CUP / VP modpack / stable base: This is exactly what we're currently trying to establish. Thanks for these suggestions Aioros, you see we're exactly on the same page here.
Cooperation: I have to second that and you can see from the Sunderland that within a manageable dimension, this works fine. Modding can overcome barriers, but this is a tender plant and we learnt from the past that any official interference will just kill the well working cooperation that takes place on lower levels already.

Open Source: When talking to me personally, you preach to a converted, however we must accept that not everyone shares the same idea.
Nevertheless, when talking about source availability, IL-2 modding separates into 3 sections:
1.) Java Code: This is accessible already for the simple fact that you can decompile all existing Java Code that you find in IL-2 and you'll get back 99% working and pretty much literally precise code as it was used by the creator, just lacking the comments. We could keep you from decompiling our Code (like Zuti did with his MDS mod), but we don't. The tools for getting the Java Classes out of the game a publically available, keywords for a search are "classdumping" and "classresolver".
2.) 3D files, textures etc.: All available already in their original format, should these files reside within SFS archives we have the "SFS Extractor" available publically at SAS.
3.) Native Code: If we do it, you will get sources available in public. All other native code, be it from 1C/Maddox or later from TD has not been disclosed. That's one of the big issues for modding, the second big issue is the intentional changes to existing Java Code in order to break existing mods with each and every patch from TD, that's what this thread mainly deals with.

Code Repository disclosure: Thanks for the suggestion. Our current Repository contains both "work in progress" code and "final release" code. While the latter qualifies for public availability, the first would create a whole lot of issues if it became publically available, "stealing" (in terms of intellectual property) and "maintainability" are just two of them. Nevertheless I'll put the idea of a public repo for final codes aside for later reconsideration.

Tools: As mentioned above, IL-2 specific tools are publically available already (class dumping, resolving, hashing, SFS extraction etc.), other tools you can download for free (e.g. Eclipse for Java Class compilation, or you can just use javac that ships with Oracle's JDK), others again you have to buy (Autodesk 3DS Max, GMax is a slightly less capable but free alternative for many 3D related tasks). We don't have any other tools on our shelf than what you see already.

Teaching modding: With our limited resources, we just cannot take each and every "maybe/wannabe" modder by the hand and guide him through all the basic steps personally. Instead we adopted a practice where potential modders have to show that they're willing and capable to learn modding by providing some kind of initial mod first, based on own initiative, before we invite them to a group of experienced modders who can teach them the tricks and ruses of more sophisticated mods for IL-2. If we'd open that gate publically, our experienced modders would find no time for own projects at all anymore, that's a no-go.

The bottom line is that we are as open as our limited resource allow us (putting the public final code repo aside for the moment).
What gets us upset is the fact that between TD and the modding community, this is a one-way street. We provide, we share. TD takes and gives back nothing.
And even more, they waste a great part of their energy on deliberately undermining IL-2 modding by implementing absolutely unnecessary code changes in each and every patch that serve no other purpose but to break existing mods, plus where they can't break them, they simply hide away their code in closed source native libraries (dt.dll).
That's an open war declaration against IL-2 modding and this is something we simply cannot and will not accept.

Best regards - Mike
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Knochenlutscher

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Re: 4.13.1 is released
« Reply #113 on: April 13, 2016, 02:24:58 AM »

Exactly, take me, nobody here would benefit teaching me the Java, coding stuff. My Pal could do,
but he runs his business in R/L, his wife now pregnant, so it would cost him plenty time and nerves.
As a producer he helps me tweaking some Audio Files I do for pimping up the Me262 sound.
Since I lack any abillity, I rely on his freetime and will to help. We still need to do the the new Riedelstarter Sound.
Well, I started this when Anto released his Me262 Pack here. Quite a time, and I'm still not able to release.
Our Modders here have R/L too, at least I can't complain.
Apart from that I'm lacking basics of computer programming, just that I'm used to BF2 editing with Sandboxtools or in IL-2 with
crude skills, doesn't mean I have to be offered the Tools. I would steer around in corners trying to get a clue what it's all about.
I saw Threads of Java Coders, discussing their daily work, showcasing some stuff in screenies, how it looks.
Well, I got pretty scared, all the lines and binaries, well.
I have no clue what it's all about. In practice this means I can only tinker in Texteditor, tweak and try things out.
My skills are laid at arts and graphics in R/L, I can teach you Fontdesign, Freehand, Photoshop,
how to build a canvas, mix up oil colour without buying a ready tube.
I depend on other Modders, who share their time, knowledge, agree to catch up ideas, projects.
Basicly as a Modder I'm disabled, I need Help at 99% of the work. My input is thus very small.
Other way round too, so if a Modder asks me for kicking his project further, why not.
We help each other out, the best we can.

It may work as proposed for already gifted people, but wonderboys like me are an example here too,
that our way is somehow working. At least I get a chance to kick a project or two.

The few projects I did are not to be seen as my brainchilds, but a coorporation between Modders and me,
without whom, no Snippet would have ever seen the light. That's daily life here, I don't know what perfect Mod-Life is,
but from my point of view perfect is boring, please don't put me in such perfect shape.
I'm happy the way it is.

Kind Regards
Tobias
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asheshouse

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Re: 4.13.1 is released
« Reply #114 on: April 13, 2016, 02:39:03 AM »

why aren't SAS's tools open source in a public repository?

All the tools you need are publicly available. You just need to search, or ask.
I started modding around 2008. The first tools I used were sfs extractor and mshconvertor to extract an existing stock model and study its structure.
My first model was created using a stock model as a guide.
For model creation I use Max, Photoshop and TextPad --- not IL2 tools.
Export to IL2 format uses Maraz Exporter - a publicly available tool.
and Kumpfels Matrix Tool - a publicly available tool.

So Flyingfish, lack of publicly available tools is not a problem to you, so get modding. ;)
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Pursuivant

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Re: 4.13.1 is released
« Reply #115 on: April 13, 2016, 02:54:12 AM »

Sorry to interrupt, but who is TD exactly? Is that who "took over" on IL-2 after Oleg moved on, or something like that?

TD or DT stands for "Daidalos Team" or "Team Daidalos". They are a group of modders (perhaps a dozen or so initially, possibly fewer now) who officially have exclusive rights to continue development of IL2:1946, mostly because they contacted Oleg/1c and asked for permission to do so.

Daidalos Team agreed to abide by certain rules and development restrictions which applied to the original game. The exact terms of their agreement with 1c are secret, but they have said that they are limited in the following ways:

* No content prohibited to the original IL2:1946 game due to the Northrop-Grumman consent decree with Ubisoft/1c. This means most American ships, and all Northrop, Grumman or Ryan aircraft are off limits. Furthermore, there can be no upgrades for Grumman aircraft which already exist in the game, so there will never be an "official" flyable TBF Avenger, no new Hellcat models, and the "official" Hellcat cockpits will always suck.

* Nothing that breaks the laws in a country where 1c/Ubisoft operates. This means no swastikas by default on Luftwaffe planes because the swastika is banned in Germany, and restricted in many other European countries.

* Polygon counts for ordinance, ground objects, aircraft, etc. must be limited to more or less conform to the original computer requirements to run the game. There has been some relaxation of the rules here, but basically any object developed for DT has to be relatively lower in polygons compared to mods.

* All new content must follow copyright restrictions. This means no porting objects, etc. from other games into IL2 without official permission from the copyright holder - even if it's another Ubisoft or 1c game. Maps must also use non-copyrighted textures, so no textures based on Google Maps or similar are allowed.

* All new content must be of equal quality to that included in the original game. This means no "franken-planes", no cockpits ported from other aircraft, no models with missing LoD (level of detail) models, shadow models, hooks, etc.

* Content must be focused on air combat from approximately 1939-45, although they're not against developing content for earlier or later conflicts from the 1930s to 1950s, like the Spanish Civil War or the Korean Conflict.

Because of their special relationship with 1c/Ubisoft, Daidalos Team got access to the original IL2: 1946 ver. 4.09 source code and development tools. Any updates that they release to the game represent legal, official, sanctioned content by 1c/Ubisoft, making the 4.13.1 version of the game the official "stock" version which, legally, everyone is supposed to be using.

It's quite likely that TD is required to take steps to defend 1c/Ubisoft's intellectual property rights, which means that might be forced to take steps to discourage "unauthorized use" of the IL2 source code by other mod teams - especially teams which are actually modifying IL2's game engine rather than just making graphic add-ons.

One of the most effective ways that they've found to discourage other modders is by making widespread changes to the code with each new update. This "breaks" most mods until modders can discover work-arounds or methods of "repairing" the DT code so that it's compatible with mods.

Initially, they "played nice" and made changes which were easy enough to detect and repair. With the 4.12 patch and later, however, they've been making their code much harder to repair, which causes massive headaches for modders and the folks who enjoy using mods.

The overarching problem is that there are far more "unofficial" modders than there are members of Daidalos Team, and "unofficial" modders work much faster than DT does to fix bugs in the stock game and to add new content. In many cases, content produced by "unofficial" modders equals or exceeds the quality of TD's work. Certainly mod packs like C.U.P., HSFX, and their predecessors add far more content, and fix far more problems with the stock game, than DT possibly could.

That leads to a situation where TD is no longer in a leadership position in the modding community, leaving many modders to wonder why TD still has "official" status.

Personally, I think that there are areas where TD does good work. They set high standards for themselves, even if they don't always meet them. Certainly, there are some TD members who seem like perfectly decent, honorable people. I've had good luck working with them, albeit in a very minor way.

On the other hand, it seems like other members of the team are abusing their authority, treating unofficial modders with contempt, and possibly stealing content from the unofficial modding community and calling it their own. That's some seriously bad stuff, and I don't blame the hard working high-level modders on this forum for blowing their stacks at Daidalos Team for what they've done.

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Alfie Noakes

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Re: 4.13.1 is released
« Reply #116 on: April 13, 2016, 03:37:07 AM »

Many thanks to all for this interesting and informative thread....I'm a lot clearer about the subject now.
One question though.......
If in the future TD gives us access to all it's tools & development rights etc ....would it be possible for modders to make curved roads and moving cockpit shadows in our game.........I find the bar straight roads are the only thing the really irritate me in IL2    :-X

Cheers

Alfie
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sniperton

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Re: 4.13.1 is released
« Reply #117 on: April 13, 2016, 04:34:21 AM »

Missions store waypoint coordinates for moving ground vehicles. They are quite frequently put on road and rail bendings both by mission designers and 3rd party campaign generators like DGEN and DCG. Curved roads would practicaly break all missions (even if solution were found to the problem how vehicles can be forced to follow curved route patterns), because many previously set coordinates would be offset.
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Mick

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Re: 4.13.1 is released
« Reply #118 on: April 13, 2016, 04:51:55 AM »

Quite a good summary, Pursuivant, we can also add, although nobody here has ever seen the allegely signed contract (renewed ...?) between DT and 1C Games, that DT cannot make any plane that is already included in CoD, like the Avro Anson, Wellington, Fiat Br20, to name a few ...

Same with the Channel/Northern France map ...

Hopefully, apart from the Anson, free modders have filled that gap ...

Also that the poly count barrier (3000 polys max per mesh, if my memory is good) dates back when IL2 was released, at a time when a 64 Mb graphics card was considered as "middle of the road", and a 128 Mb one was a must ...
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max_thehitman

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Re: 4.13.1 is released
« Reply #119 on: April 13, 2016, 05:10:10 AM »

Code: [Select]
[quote author=Pursuivant link=topic=50987.msg556814#msg556814 date=1460537652]
[quote author=MrMojok link=topic=50987.msg556782#msg556782 date=1460520520]
Sorry to interrupt, but who is TD exactly? Is that who "took over" on IL-2 after Oleg moved on, or something like that?[/quote]

TD or DT stands for "Daidalos Team" or "Team Daidalos". They are a group of modders (perhaps a dozen or so initially, possibly fewer now) who officially have exclusive rights to continue development of IL2:1946, mostly because they contacted Oleg/1c and asked for permission to do so.

Daidalos Team agreed to abide by certain rules and development restrictions which applied to the original game. The exact terms of their agreement with 1c are secret, but they have said that they are limited in the following ways:

* No content prohibited to the original IL2:1946 game due to the Northrop-Grumman consent decree with Ubisoft/1c. This means most American ships, and all Northrop, Grumman or Ryan aircraft are off limits. Furthermore, there can be no upgrades for Grumman aircraft which already exist in the game, so there will never be an "official" flyable TBF Avenger, no new Hellcat models, and the "official" Hellcat cockpits will always suck.

* Nothing that breaks the laws in a country where 1c/Ubisoft operates. This means no swastikas by default on Luftwaffe planes because the swastika is banned in Germany, and restricted in many other European countries.

* Polygon counts for ordinance, ground objects, aircraft, etc. must be limited to more or less conform to the original computer requirements to run the game. There has been some relaxation of the rules here, but basically any object developed for DT has to be relatively lower in polygons compared to mods.

* All new content must follow copyright restrictions. This means no porting objects, etc. from other games into IL2 without official permission from the copyright holder - even if it's another Ubisoft or 1c game. Maps must also use non-copyrighted textures, so no textures based on Google Maps or similar are allowed.

* All new content must be of equal quality to that included in the original game. This means no "franken-planes", no cockpits ported from other aircraft, no models with missing LoD (level of detail) models, shadow models, hooks, etc.

* Content must be focused on air combat from approximately 1939-45, although they're not against developing content for earlier or later conflicts from the 1930s to 1950s, like the Spanish Civil War or the Korean Conflict.

Because of their special relationship with 1c/Ubisoft, Daidalos Team got access to the original IL2: 1946 ver. 4.09 source code and development tools. Any updates that they release to the game represent legal, official, sanctioned content by 1c/Ubisoft, making the 4.13.1 version of the game the official "stock" version which, legally, everyone is supposed to be using.

It's quite likely that TD is required to take steps to defend 1c/Ubisoft's intellectual property rights, which means that might be forced to take steps to discourage "unauthorized use" of the IL2 source code by other mod teams - especially teams which are actually modifying IL2's game engine rather than just making graphic add-ons.

One of the most effective ways that they've found to discourage other modders is by making widespread changes to the code with each new update. This "breaks" most mods until modders can discover work-arounds or methods of "repairing" the DT code so that it's compatible with mods.

Initially, they "played nice" and made changes which were easy enough to detect and repair. With the 4.12 patch and later, however, they've been making their code much harder to repair, which causes massive headaches for modders and the folks who enjoy using mods.

The overarching problem is that there are far more "unofficial" modders than there are members of Daidalos Team, and "unofficial" modders work much faster than DT does to fix bugs in the stock game and to add new content. In many cases, content produced by "unofficial" modders equals or exceeds the quality of TD's work. Certainly mod packs like C.U.P., HSFX, and their predecessors add far more content, and fix far more problems with the stock game, than DT possibly could.

That leads to a situation where TD is no longer in a leadership position in the modding community, leaving many modders to wonder why TD still has "official" status.

Personally, I think that there are areas where TD does good work. They set high standards for themselves, even if they don't always meet them. Certainly, there are some TD members who seem like perfectly decent, honorable people. I've had good luck working with them, albeit in a very minor way.

On the other hand, it seems like other members of the team are abusing their authority, treating unofficial modders with contempt, and possibly stealing content from the unofficial modding community and calling it their own. That's some seriously bad stuff, and I don't blame the hard working high-level modders on this forum for blowing their stacks at Daidalos Team for what they've done.
[/quote]

Thank you Pursuivant.

Anyway, I will continue doing (and enjoying) my little mod changes to this game for my pleasure.
I will continue sharing my stuff with the community and my good friends, even if that means breaking the official rules.
If I was going to conform to these "official rules", I might as well give up on the good times in life all-together. Become a grumpy
old man and start drinking wine and go feed the pigeons in the park  :P

This old game gives me , and many of us aviation fans, the one thing we most enjoy and which we will never
be able to do in our lives, and that is , to FLY. - To fly and experience what it feels like to be at the controls of
a classic aircraft. THANK YOU Mister Oleg Maddox ! You are a brilliant man and we all admire and love you for
having created the IL2-1946.

Many of us don't particularly like flying, but they find their pleasure in creating maps landscapes, scene dioramas,
and doing so many other cool things with this game. It offers so much to everyone.
So I don't believe anyone will be stopping doing what they like best in life any sooner.

In my personal view-point, I believe that Team Daidalos should also be a group of cool people too, and understand the pleasures
 this game gives to so many people. Try not to undermine the game-codes and make these bizarre changes they keep
doing just to break up the modded-game and its aircraft.  Yes, they also do a nice job, but they also break up alot of peoples
good times.
This behavior in return just makes them more despised (than being loved and respected) by the entire aviation community.
This also makes many game-modding artists and skin-artists hold back their goodies from being shared to many
more people and the community. Many have just given up and left, sad to admit  :(

This constant reaction of push-forward, pull-backwards, push forward,  thing in the game development just
makes many people give up on the good times and thus making things go NOWHERE.

But I am not going to stop my good times, and I am not going to allow anyone to spoil my good times.


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Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening ! Welcome to SAS1946
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