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[SAS~Storebror]

That's because 4.09 was the last patch before TD, so it's the last "not fucked up" patch for modders.
4.09 comes along with a lot less methods inside the core game's java classes, so the planes for 4.09 lack a couple of functionalities introduced later by TD.
That would be a plus for later mods when there wasn't TD's constant way of fucking up all existing code to introduce minor new features.
That's why the more functions you use, like e.g. planes depending on EngineMod/Jetwar which use anything the game has to offer and beyond, the more you are at risk of having to rewrite all code from scratch when TD brings out the next patch, because they will mess around with anything that's been taken for granted before.

Best regards - Mike

[Ta183Huckebein]

So basically 4.09 mods have the potential to be universally compatible? Neat

[SAS~Storebror]

No, never said so.

[Mick]

... someone with the necessary skills and knowledge should someday list all TD's code changes that fucked up our previously stable modded games, just to show the sceptics what TD brought to us ... too ... 

It all started with patch 4.10, and its now world famous alleged buttons "typo" (all 0 (zeros) turned into O (letter O)...)   

But this was a really amateurish start, then with 4.11, TD really "improved" the content  of its latest patch and so on ... 

I sometimes dream (less and less often, as time elapses ...) what our beloved game/sim would look like, had TD behaved in a much less childish and agressive way ...

Hopefully, nobody would wonder what is the best version/pack to use, because there would only be one version, made of TD's "official" patches, enriched with all "free" (read, not under contract with 1C Games, like TD allegely is) modders content ...

After all, this is what we used to have, in the ancient times, when Maddox Games released patches, a one size fits all version of the game, and nobody complained about it ... 

[SAS~Storebror]

In a software developer's world, "backward compatibility" goes without saying.
You can invent whatever you like when you roll out a new software version, but for heaven's sake it has to be backward compatible.
It's as simple as that.
Would TD have sticked to this simple rule that has been accepted for decades all around the globe, nobody would ever have had to argue about their patches, we'd have at least twice as many active modders as we have today (countless modders left the scene for being sick and tired of having to rework their mods with each and every new TD patch seeing the light of day) and all existing mods would work indefinitely as long as they don't alter base game classes.
Sure, there'd be those massive mods like "Engine Mod" or "Visual MOD" that very closely interact with the game and have to change base game classes for that reason, those mods would still need to be maintained, but that's feasible.
The current status is that every mod is put to question when a new patch arrives, and that's inacceptable.
Add to that, the statements above only address the aspects of accidentally breaking backward compatibility.
What really freaks out the modding community is the fact that TD does so intentionally, massively, constantly.
That's what drives nail after nail in the coffin, it kills TD themselves, it kills the modding community, it kills the game.

Best regards - Mike

[flyingfisch]

Just out of curiosity, why aren't SAS's tools open source in a public repository? It seems like they are placing themselves on morally unstable ground by using the same tactics of deception that TD allegedly uses.

[SAS~Storebror]

using the same tactics of deception

What?
Partly the tools are open source already, e.g. the Selector is available on sourceforge and the SAS Common Utils even ship with sources included.
Those sources that are not available plain straight to "everyone" are available to all active modders at SAS.
No request to share a particular mod's sources has ever been rejected here as far as I know, quite opposite, we introduce new modders into the source code repositories and teach them to work with original sources instead of the endless decompile->modify->compile chains.

Best regards - Mike

[flyingfisch]

Then how is TD "stealing" if it's all open sourced? Is any of it licensed with an open source license such as gpl? (particularly the tools)?

Also source forge isn't an incredibly great place to be hosting code due to their own tactics of deception and general animosity towards the open source community. However that is sort of beside the point as where you host your code isn't extremely relevant as long as you are hosting it publicly.

Allowing modders access to your tools isn't the same as having those tools open source, BTW. That's free as in beer, not free as in freedom, as your end user isn't allowed unrestricted access to the source code.


Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk

[SAS~Storebror]

But you do get the difference between "available to all who need it" and "strictly obfuscated from any further access", don't you?
And you do get that we're not into copyright issues and "stealing" isn't a legal term here, yes?

If so, what exactly are you trying to imply?

Best regards - Mike

[SAS~GJE52]

@ flyingfisch

Thank you for your input, however your comments are designed to mis-represent the situation and are irrelevant to the real issue here.

SAS supports the modding community, helps modders develop new ideas and has always acted to counter the deliberate actions of TD - who intentionally seek to thwart those who introduce new content to the game.

Just to make sure we are on the same page and before you try and defend their actions, it should be remembered that there is no practical need/requirement/necessity for TD patches to introduce malicious code changes. ........ none ... zero ... zip ... nada ....... 

This issue is not one of our making, so perhaps your questions would be better directed at TD .. if your interest in this matter is genuine that is .... 

BTW. That's free as in beer, not free as in freedom, as your end user isn't allowed unrestricted access to the source code. 

  BTW I  have absolutely no idea WTF this is meant to mean .... 

G;

[flyingfisch]

I guess what I'm saying is this sort of stuff has no reason to be copyrighted IMHO since no one makes money from it and it seems kind of arbitrary to only allow modders access to the source code if in fact you are concerned about  the future of il2.

I do understand that there could be philosophical reasons you wouldn't want to do this though.

In any case, I'm not taking either side here. I'm just curious why the source code is only available to SAS approved modders. What if another site wanted to start a mid that you didn't approve of? From what I understand these tools would not be made available to them. To me this seems like modders are placing their own egos and desire for recognition above the future of the game, and also the end users of the game.

I could be totally wrong about this, and I'm definitely not saying that's how it is. I'm just saying that is my perception.

Also, "free as in beer" refers to software that is released for free but without source code and rights to modify and redistribute. "Free as in freedom" refers to the software that gives the end user editing and redistribution rights, usually with a license such as GPL, or a creative commons free software license.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk

Edit: just realized I misread storebror's post. I am aware of your first point, but the fact that we aren't arguing over legal copyright issues is something that I was not aware of. Most of the points in this post still stand though.

[SAS~GJE52]

@Flyingfisch

I have no idea what your intentions are or what you are seeking to achieve, however, I think you seriously need to talk to TD first, discuss with them their intentions and attitude towards the modding community, then come back and re-read this entire thread. Once you have taken time to carefully consider the comments in it, I hope you may have a more informed viewpoint .

Then, given your new insight, perhaps you can explain the reasons behind their actions to the rest of us...... 

 ....... Otherwise, sadly, your current line of discussion is simply "background noise" to what those of us who mod this game see as a far more important issue.....

G;