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[greybeard]

[The synchronization gear of a Messerschmitt Bf 109E is adjusted (January 1941). A wooden disk attached to the propeller is used to indicate where each round passes through the propeller arc. Source:Wikipedia]

FEATURE
It fixes to the historical value the synchronized rate of fire of the following weapons:

12.7 mm Breda-SAFAT machine gun (575 rounds/min instead of 525-700)
M2 Browning machine gun (300 rounds/min instead of 650)
Ho-103 machine gun (400 rounds per minute instead of 880)
UBS machine gun (800 rounds per minute instead of 900)
MG FF autocannon (520 rounds per minute instead of 500; applied to the "synchronized" game variant, which actually never existed)
MG 17 machine gun (1000 rounds per minute instead of 900)
.303 Browning machine gun (730 rounds per minute instead of 900)
MG 131 machine gun (810 rounds/min instead of 840/860)
ShKAS machine gun (1500 rounds/min instead of 1800)
ShVAK autocannon (700 rounds per minute instead of 650)
MG 151/20 autocannon (550 rounds per minute instead of 690)
MG 15 (in synchronized versions acts as Japanese Type 97 on A6M fighters family. 730 rounds per minute instead of 900)
Vickers K (it models Type 89 on Ki-43 and Ki-44 packs by Greybeard. 730 rounds per minute instead of 900)
Ho-5 20 mm autocannon (450 rounds per minute instead of 765)

Download link

Cheers,
GB

[Flanker27]

i figure this is a long shot but would this work for online play as well?

[SAS~Ghost129er]

i figure this is a long shot but would this work for online play as well?

If you use this in UP3 this would be 'cheating' - using/use modded class files. Just saying since these from what I can see affect Rate of Fire values and etc DESPITE these being weapon nerfs rather than weapon buffs.

If it's UP3 related, you know where to suggest this.

[SAS~Storebror]

Thanks for your efforts greybeard.
Could we have your sources for the new values please?

Because honestly I'm not totally convinced yet.
Someone would have to explain the vast differences to me, especially the vast differences between the differences

M2 Browning machine gun (300 rounds/min instead of 650)
(...)
.303 Browning machine gun (730 rounds per minute instead of 900)

Why would a .50 Browning lose 54% of it's RoF from synchronization, whereas a .303 Browning "only" loses 19%?
And how do you come to set fixed RoF values per gun at all?
In my understanding of world physics, it would have to be per gun, per aircraft installation.
Because a synchronized gun shooting through a 4-blade prop surely suffers more RoF loss from synchronization than the same gun shooting through a 3- or 2-blade prop.
And a wide chord prop causes more loss than a narrow cord one.
And mounting the gun closer to prop center axis causes more loss than mounting it further away, but the latter allows for less tolerance.

I'm really wondering where these numbers are coming from.
For the time being, my hint to others would be to take this with a large grain of salt.


Mike

[greybeard]

... would this work for online play as well?

Very good question. I think so, but I've no idea how.

[greybeard]

Could we have your sources for the new values please?

I'm sorry Mike, but I haven't kept the references of all the research and discussions that led me to these results: I think you will have to trust if you want.

I can only offer you a little taste of the conversations with Anthony Williams and other experts on the different firing rates of apparently similar weapons, such as the Browning M2, the Ho-103 and the Breda-SAFAT 12.7 mm:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/?msg=7232.26

"Breda-SAFAT machine guns were not derivatives of Browning guns. They look as if they could be, but their design was substantially different. In particular locking mechanism was nothing like Browning guns.
See: https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/589056826233683253/visual-search/?x=16&y=11&w=530&h=347 and note "hook" under the breech, being the lock (as opposed to vertically sliding wedge in rear of barrel extension in Browning guns) and ramp in receiver (as opposed to a lever in Browning guns) which caused cartridges to move down in T-slot in bolt face. "

Regards,
GB

[SAS~Storebror]

Thanks for the link greybeard.

So the 300 rounds per minute on the M2 comes from http://www.gunsopedia.com/M2_Browning_machine_gun#Design_details
But wasn't the consensus in that thread you've mentioned that the value on gunsopedia is a mistake?
See http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/?msg=7232.20

I saw reports on tests of the P-63 King Cobra in USSR in 1944. There the rate of fire of synchronous Browning was estimated at 550-600 rpm

Mike

[greybeard]

So the 300 rounds per minute on the M2 comes from http://www.gunsopedia.com/M2_Browning_machine_gun#Design_details

Thanks for your careful reading: I didn't even remember myself that the reference for the 300 RPM was that.

But wasn't the consensus in that thread you've mentioned that the value on gunsopedia is a mistake?

The fact is that the 300 RPM agree better with other data on similar weapons; and that is the Ho-103 which had the exact same mechanism but the shorter cartridge (and therefore faster loading), and on whose RoF all sources agree on 400 RPM (see "https://www.warbirdforum.com/jaafmgs.htm "and" http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/J/a/Japanese_12p7mm_Type_1_gun.htm ") and the Breda-SAFAT 12.7 mm which had the same cartridge as the Ho-103, but thanks to the lever mechanism of Mascarucci, reached 574 strokes per minute ("https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda-SAFAT"). A higher shooting cadence for "Ma Deuce" would cause this logical sequence to fall.

[SAS~Storebror]

There's much more to the rate of fire than the cartridge length you know.
As mentioned earlier, there's much more to the rate of fire anyway.
We didn't even talk about the prop's rpm yet.
I'm sorry to say, but all of this seems a bit made up out of thin air to me.
Lots of simplifications, neglecting physics, hearsay, opinions... I'd rather not touch anything if there aren't facts about the real values.


Mike

[greybeard]

There's much more to the rate of fire than the cartridge length you know.
...
We didn't even talk about the prop's rpm yet...

... I'd rather not touch anything if there aren't facts about the real values.

I have already dealt with synchronization (for Red Baron planes) and I assure you that nothing is as it seems. In particular, the common opinion that the machine gun is waiting for a breach in the propeller to be able to shoot is the opposite of reality: it is the propeller that offers multiple gates to the machine gun to shoot before it is actually ready to do it.

You are right about the variation of the RoF with the number of revolutions of the propeller: I remember having built a "sawtooth" chart in this regard. However, there is only one number for the firing frequency (shotF) in the weapon's classfile, and I have corrected that. I believe that whoever put it has adopted an even simpler criterion, reducing their respective RoF by 10% for all weapons when synchronized, which is valid for German weapons with electric priming, but can give values ​​too far from reality in the other case.

I'm sorry that you didn't appreciate my work, but of course everyone is free to use it or not, according to his thought.

Cheers,
GB

[SAS~Storebror]

Oh, don't get me wrong please, I do appreciate your work, I'm just a bit indecisive when it comes to replacing one assumption with another.


Mike

[One_time_User_Killa_Kiwi]

Why would a .50 Browning lose 54% of it's RoF from synchronization, whereas a .303 Browning "only" loses 19%?

Oh I think I know the answer:
First of all, the guns are already synchronized, so for example the .303 Brownings RoF is 1200 RPM not synchronized, incorrectly synchronized at 900 RPM but it should be 730 RPM according to greybeard.
So the gun didn't lose 19% but actually ~40%. (For the .50cal it's generally 400 RPM synchronized, afaik, but can be lower)

Second, one of the problem with the Browning mechanism is, afaik, that the firing pin is long and heavy so it takes longer to fire after the firing pin is released.
The .30cal is practically identical to the .50cal mechanism but lighter in every way, so it's not as much of a problem but stil worse compared to guns that have very light firing pins.
The Vickers E and Japanese Type 97 seem to have good synchronisation performance because of that, only losing ~20-25%.

Another issue with the Browning mechanism is probably that the firing pin is held only when the trigger is not engaged instead of being held by an additional mechanism.
That's why the Bredas would end up with better synchronisation performance compared to the US and Japanese Brownings (Ho-103, Ho-5).