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[Greyhound87]

Hi all,

I Recently found out that the Zonk Mod might solve ( Hopefully) all our problems with the behaviour of the AI when intercepting bombers and dogfights with fighters. I created a new il2 mod file with 4.13.4 ypack 1.2.3. This Zonk mod unfortunately only works on Ypack. But with the results I was impressed with how the AI behaved.
 
I did a mission with B-29s who were approaching the airbase on Okinawa map and Zeros to intercept the bombers on QMB. As I was approaching the target. The Zeros come in out of no where. The Zeros would do a hit and run tactic on the bombers. The Zeros would be in high altitude looking down on the bombers then when they are ready they'll make their attack run. 

One Zero came head on at me at high speed fired at us then he was gone out of sight quickly. Another thing to mention being on a gunner side of things makes you look everywhere as they can hit you at any time and can attack at all angles and sides. Then another one came down in a front angle attack hitting my wingmans right side engine killing the Bombardier and the Co-pilot

After bombing the target the Zeros did a couple more attack runs on the bombers as we reached our waypoint to head home. The Zeros broke off and returned back to base. Results of the mission- 16 B-29s at the start. 5 were shot down. 8 Zeros at the start. 3 were shot down. There were no Fighter escort in the mission.

The point to the story and sorry if its a bit long. I think this kind of mod would be good for the BAT mod which I currently use. Thought I get a look at this Zonk mod on Ypack and I think it would be worth a look if it can work on BAT aswell. I wouldn't know how to do it.

Thought I see if anyone out there can take a look at it.

Stay safe

[SAS~tsisqua]

I assume this to be the mod you're writing about. This would make things MUCH better, for sure. There would be fewer losses to AI stupidity. I don't see why this couldn't work, or be made to work for any IL2 1946 version.

[SAS~Storebror]

Looking at the internals of the Zonk mod, I have to say that I'm not that impressed.
Original 4.13 AI has a pretty carefully implemented (and working) visibility check vs. clouds and darkness.
Zonk mod simply blanks this out. AI can see through clouds again, and AI can see everything in the darkest, deepest night.
That's a step back to pre-4.10 times.

4.13 code:

Code: [Select]

    public static boolean isVisibilityBlockedByClouds(FlightModel flightmodel, FlightModel flightmodel1, boolean flag)
    {
        if(Main.cur().clouds == null || flightmodel == null || flightmodel1 == null || flightmodel.actor == null || flightmodel1.actor == null)
            return false;
        float f = Main.cur().clouds.getVisibility(flightmodel.actor.pos.getAbsPoint(), flightmodel1.actor.pos.getAbsPoint());
        return f <= 0.0F;
    }

    public static boolean isVisibilityBlockedByDarkness(FlightModel flightmodel, FlightModel flightmodel1)
    {
        if(flightmodel == null || flightmodel1 == null || flightmodel.actor == null || flightmodel1.actor == null)
            return false;
        if(com.maddox.il2.ai.World.Sun().ToSun.z > 0.0F)
        {
            return false;
        } else
        {
            tmpVGr1.sub(flightmodel1.Loc, flightmodel.Loc);
            v_1.sub(flightmodel.Loc, flightmodel1.Loc);
            v_1.normalize();
            return !checkAmbientPos(flightmodel.Loc, flightmodel1.Loc, (Aircraft)flightmodel.actor, (Aircraft)flightmodel1.actor, flightmodel.Skill, false);
        }
    }
Zonk code:

Code: [Select]

    public static boolean isVisibilityBlockedByClouds(FlightModel flightmodel, FlightModel flightmodel1, boolean flag)
    {
        return false;
    }

    public static boolean isVisibilityBlockedByDarkness(FlightModel flightmodel, FlightModel flightmodel1)
    {
        return false;
    }

Mike

[SAS~Storebror]

Further investigation of the Zonk mod reveals further questionable changes to AI pilots.
There isn't that much that has actually changed, but the changes there are simply don't seem to make any sense.
For instance, almost all changes in the "Pilot" class happen in the "attackBombers" method.
The difference is: In Stock AI code, a rookie pilot would randomly attack a bomber from behind (shooting from tail to engine), in a shallow dive (shooting at engines) or just straight on.
An average Stock AI fighter jockey would attack bombers randomly in a shallow dive (shooting at engines), in boom&zoom mode (shooting at engines) or in boom&zoom mode (shooting at just anything there is). If the AI plane is equipped with large calibre weapons, the decision will be either boom&zoom mode (shooting at engines), rom behind (shooting from tail to engine) or in a shallow dive (shooting at engines) - the latter is the most probably attack in this case (3:1 vs. all others).
A veteran Stock AI fighter jockey would attack bombers randomly in boom&zoom mode (shooting at engines), from behind (shooting from tail to engine), from the side or in a shallow dive (shooting at engines) - the first and the latter have a 2:1 probability above the others. If the AI plane is equipped with large calibre weapons, the decision will be either in a shallow dive (shooting at engines), boom&zoom mode (shooting at engines) or in boom&zoom mode (shooting at just anything there is) - the latter is the most probably attack in this case (3:1 vs. all others).
An Ace fighter pilot has a really large decision scheme, you get the gist.

In Zonk mod, the AI pilot will attack from ahead, no matter which skill or whatever else. Why? What's the point?
This is completely unrealistic.

That being said, what has been shown in the video simply isn't what's happening in code - you will not get what's been promised when you are using this mod.
It's simply bollocks, sorry to say.


Mike

[SAS~Storebror]

To add further issues to the list, Zonk mod completely nihilates AI's ability to attack bombers with rockets (WrfGr21, R4M etc.).

And I also found the reason why the AI in the video doesn't do what the decision pattern actually tells (head on attack no matter what).
Actually the AI flies a "headon" attack, but in the "Maneuver" class, Zonk mod statically adds an offset of +/- 2500-3000m to the side and min. 1000m above to the initial attack point. That's why AI steers a course to the side/above the bombers instead of attacking from straight ahead. That's a bit of a cheap trick to make an attack look like something else, and it yields pretty weird results when AI tries to realign for the next attack.
And to make matters worse, Zonk mod AI fighters will simply refuse to attack ace level bombers. It's weird, it makes no sense, but that's what it is.


Mike

[bomberkiller]

Hello Mike,

Very revealing!

Thanks very much.

Edit:

Since B.A.T. I have now made my peace with the AI from 4.12! 

 

Gerhard

[Vampire_pilot]

Mike geht aufs Ganze...



(if you don't know what this means, simply ignore  )

[BeliVolk]

With all it's flaws I still thnik it's a solid mod that gives interesting results. I use it on/off for the campaigns, in my experience some aircraft perform better with this mod, heavy fighters like Mustang, Thunderbolt Lightnings and even P-40 give better combat results in fighter vs fighter scenario, especially against Zeros. Lots of historical missions where my P-40 or Lightning flights got wiped out in regular 4.12 AI, with Zonks mod effectivness and survival rises. The bomber attacking tehnique is very interesting if youre in bomber, the AI gets some really nice shots attacking from sides, some nice actions were made by AI (and they survive more often), but on the other hand its frustating to watch and see your fighters trying to get the attack angle on the enemy bombers beacuse they could shoot them down already with the regular aggresivness of the stock AI. It also makes bombers in large groups more effective on the bombing runs.
As I said, I use it on/off depending on the planeset and targets. I would gladly use for the 4.12 scenarios as well.

[SAS~Storebror]

in my experience some aircraft perform better with this mod, heavy fighters like Mustang, Thunderbolt Lightnings and even P-40 give better combat results in fighter vs fighter scenario, especially against Zeros.

Classical placebo effect.
The Zonk mod doesn't touch anything regarding fighter vs fighter at all.


Mike

[SAS~tsisqua]

Original 4.13 AI has a pretty carefully implemented (and working) visibility check vs. clouds and darkness.
Zonk mod simply blanks this out. AI can see through clouds again, and AI can see everything in the darkest, deepest night.
That's a step back to pre-4.10 times.

That is all I needed to know.
Not going back to that crap LOL.

[Consul]

Would removing the AI changes but retaining the FMB changes (i.e. single 24-plane flights) be possible? It is quite convenient to just plop down large bomber formations than it is to painstakingly place 3-4 extra flights of bombers that need to be manually adjusted to follow one course.

[SAS~Storebror]

FMB changes (i.e. single 24-plane flights)

Could you provide a download link of that version please?


Mike