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Author Topic: Alternate History Roadblocks...  (Read 694 times)

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NobleNerd

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Alternate History Roadblocks...
« on: September 28, 2022, 09:43:06 PM »

So I'm still trying to tie a bunch of details into what I hope is eventually a believable alternate history, but I've run into some serious roadblocks regarding tech. Long story short, events go strangely, and WWII isn't a proper World War until 1946, and even then, it plays out very differently.

In my mind, you'd still have things like the Tiger II and Panther, but it recently hit me like a ton of bricks with the word "duh" carved into each one; if Operation Barbarossa never happened and the Germans never had the chance to encounter T-34s directly until 1946, how would they have the knowledge to build their famous tank designs in time for the later conflict? After all, both the Tiger II and Panther were partially based on the T-34.

And then you have jet engines. Once again, I originally envisioned the Soviets using things like MiG-9s, but again, no Barbarossa, no chance to steal things like Me-262s and thus no reverse-engineered jet engines.

Probably the biggest one: assault rifles. If the Soviets never got their hands on the StG-44, would the AK exist? I pictured the Soviets adopting the AK-46 (an earlier model of AK that was eventually refined into the AK-47) since war would start in 1946, but once again, no Sturmgewehr... no AK?

Where would I go with this? Would the VK 20 tank designs be developed further without the changes in requirements (and probably suck)? Would the Soviets still be trying to get things like motorjets to function properly (and also probably suck)? Do I rely on some vague explanation like espionage and/or defectors taking weapon and aircraft tech with them?

I'm at a loss. I'm getting into territory where I have to make up a little too much, and most of it probably wouldn't be very realistic.
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Ta183Huckebein

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Re: Alternate History Roadblocks...
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2022, 08:08:58 AM »

Jets? The best you could maybe come up with is stuff like the MiG-13 (I-250), or the various Soviet rocket-powered craft like the Bi-1/6. The Russians were very interested in rocketry, but the interest in turbojets seemed limited, and (like you mention) motorjets were about as far as they got.

Assault rifles? That actually is easy, as the 7.62x39mm cartridge was invented in 1943 (hence it's original designation of M43), based on research being done that was aware of, but separate to, the German's own research. However, the likely soviet small arms in this alt-hist would probably be SKS riflemen working with RPD machinegunners. Whether or not the PPSH-41 exists depends on if the Winter War happened or not, as (IIRC), it was made based on a Finnish design.

Angled armor existed before the T-34. The Russians did not invent the concept, and there are German tanks that had sloped armor (to varying degrees) before WWII began. It's not out of the question it imagine that the Germans could have come to those designs on their own. The super-heavies might not, as the Soviet's development of the IS series was a serious incentive for German development of super-heavy tanks, but this is probably more of a help to the Germans than not, strategically speaking. 

My two cents, at least
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Dimlee

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Re: Alternate History Roadblocks...
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2022, 01:41:19 PM »

If no Barbarossa means continued cooperation between Germany and USSR... Then Soviets will get many German advanced tech designs and (probably) prototypes. As they did get before June 1941 in real life. And there will be Soviet defectors who will bring blueprints or at least some pictures/drawings to the German side.
Ah, and if Moscow plays nice with everyone, Allied jet technology will be stolen sooner or later.

The problem is solved!  8)
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NobleNerd

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Re: Alternate History Roadblocks...
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2022, 07:15:47 PM »

I guess I should clarify; in this scenario, although Barbarossa never happens, the Germans and USSR do eventually go to war in 1946, although Germany has since gone not-so-Nazi due to ol' big-H and his closest henchmen getting assassinated as early as April 1941 (two months before Barbarossa), the power vacuum causing even more political clashes and assassinations until the Fuhrer (eventually regaining the title of Kaiser) is Karl Donitz.

Donitz would have also given into popular demand and attempted Operation Sealion in 1943, although this triggers the US to join the war (Pearl Harbor was never attacked due to a civil war in Japan in 1940, the pivotal event kicking off this whole scenario) and the invasion ultimately fails. I imagine this would contribute to Stalin's decision to launch an invasion of Axis territory.
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Dimlee

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Re: Alternate History Roadblocks...
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2022, 11:15:54 AM »

If no German-Soviet war before 1946 then there is plenty of time for the military tech exchange for both sides?
Longer Germany in the war, more needs for the Soviet materials supply and consequently more German technologies go east.
In the aviation department, since there is no rush and no evacuations, Polikarpov's and Sukhoi's designs are given proper attention, while Ilyishin might abandon his half-baked Il-2 and focus on something more advanced.
Jumo 004 and BMW 003 are sent to the Soviets to compensate for shipments of coal, timber, oil, wheat, rubber... of everything German requires. Blueprints and some parts of RR jet engines are obtained by Soviet Embassy in the UK through Cambridge Five connections. Mikoyan and others can compare and choose the best engine tech for their prototypes.
By the way, no deficit of nickel and cobalt for jet turbines (German or Soviet) - Norilsk factory runs 24/7.
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NobleNerd

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Re: Alternate History Roadblocks...
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2022, 09:18:56 PM »

I do have designs like the Gu-VRD and MiG I-260 (early design that slowly evolved into the MiG-9) seeing use in this scenario, the latter being used as a light bomber since it seems better-suited to carry bombs. Mixed-power aircraft like the Su-5, XP-81, and FR Fireball see much more refinement and use. Early models of aircraft that gained their fame during the Cold War but were developed during the later stages of WWII see action early on, such as the BT2D Skyraider and B-36 Peacemaker. The B-35 Flying Wing is adopted for mass strategic bombing since the Manhattan Project is delayed and the B-36 is primarily used for dropping earthquake bombs.

One of the most entertaining parts of writing this scenario is exploring what a Soviet "Luftwaffe '46" would look like. Since the war lasts from 1946 to 1948, there's an awesome progression of developments and experiments (most notably, the Antonov "M" Masha).
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