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Author Topic: B-25 with 75 mm gun vs ships  (Read 854 times)

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Draken

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B-25 with 75 mm gun vs ships
« on: January 04, 2023, 07:20:20 PM »

The B-25 with 75 mm gun was used in the Pacific against ships .

I have several questions about this plane in the game .

There is :

B-25 G-1NA , 1943
B-25 H-1NA , 1943

and for US Navy :

PBJ-G1 , 1943
PBJ-H1N , 1944

1) How many rounds are in the 75 mm gun magazine for each plane , please ?

2) Efficiency against ships .

I noticed that a " Merchant cargo " can be destroyed with one 75 mm hit .

But the " IJN Maru Steamer " not . Can this one been sunk with 75  mm gun ? If yes, how many hits does it need , please ?

3) can a japanese battle ship , like  a small escort ship or a DD, be destroyed , or a least damaged , with the 75 mm of the B-25 ?


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Dreamk

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Re: B-25 with 75 mm gun vs ships
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2023, 03:05:17 AM »

Historically, the 75mm M4 Gun of the B-25G-NA had 21 rounds (3 storage racks of 7 shells)
Same number of rounds for the 75mm M5 (ex- T-13E1) Gun of the B-25H_NA

Both guns (M4 & M5) were manually loaded, could fire up to 4 shots in a typical attack run - though reports show that only 3 were generally fired on a single pass (after which the plane was slowed by 10-15 mph by the recoil).
Muzzle velocity 600 m/s. 
The Ammunition was 75x350R (adapted from French "75" of 19th century) . Shell weight 6.67 kg.
3 different shells could be used:
APC M61
HE M48
Shot AP M72
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WxTech

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Re: B-25 with 75 mm gun vs ships
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2023, 05:09:25 AM »

I've long been skeptical of reports of marked slowing of planes due to recoil. An example, using a mass ratio between plane and shell of factor 1,000, which due to reciprocity will induce a recoil velocity of factor 1/1,000. A 6.67kg mass thrown out at 600m/s will induce a recoil in a plane weighing 6,670kg a recoil of 0.6m/s, or 1.2kt. A volley of 3 shots, assuming no speed is regained between shots, will induce a slowing of 3.6kt.

With a loading/firing rate of 15-20 seconds per shot, one could expect a plane to regain that small loss in velocity before the next round goes out. And a heavier plane will be slowed less with each shot.
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Dreamk

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Re: B-25 with 75 mm gun vs ships
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2023, 06:10:19 AM »

So what you are basically saying is that the slowing due to a volley of 3 rounds was only 5mph instead of 10-15 mph.
the question is whether this is a linear formula or whether the impact in different at different speeds and altitude - remember that the B25 has to slow down drastically before firing this gun (slowing that enables BTW the firing of a volley of 3 rounds, the loading of these guns being manual) - the use of the M4 gun was forbidden over 230 mph.
The M5 gun was accredited to be installed only in aircrafts firing it as speeds between 200 and 250 mph (it was also tested satisfactory on B-25H at speeds between 230 and 250 mph)
There is another issue to take in consideration for such a bomber and it is the balance of the plane, and its alteration when firing. the need for adjusting the balance when firing a salvo may explain, at least in part, the difference between the calculated (5mph) and observed data (10-15 mph).

BTW these are personal stories reports gathered a few years ago on firing the 75mm from the B-25:
"My father was a design engineer at the B-25 plant in Kansas City Kansas.  He worked on the design of the Factory 75mm mount there.  He was the first person to fire a 75mm round on the range over Fort Riley, Kansas.  He recalled the event as knocking 50-74 MPH off the airspeed and blowing the bubble off the front of the plane. Smaller loads were used in regular operations. I would assume that they used a standard 75mm round that day. "
"My uncle maintained these aircraft among others in the Pacific Theater.  He flew with the B-25s on missions as an observer.  He told me that the aircraft lost a few knots of airspeed with each firing of the 75mm cannon."
"My dad flew the B-25's too. He mentioned how it seemed like a good idea some place in command to mount the 75mm but the gun would loosen rivets so they got taken out. Every firing took 5kts off their speed and they'd have to nose up to lob 75mm's. Pilots didn't like playing up and down while trying to line up good 50 and bomb hits either."
 

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WxTech

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Re: B-25 with 75 mm gun vs ships
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2023, 02:20:28 PM »

My first order calculation considered only the action-reaction principle, and assumed no energy sinks such as recoil damping mechanisms or, perhaps important here, INDUCEMENT OF DRAG.

Putting the plane at lower speed, and requiring to pitch up a bit for aiming so as to lob in those shells from longer range, imply a not insignificant angle of attack. If the angle of attack were to be increased slightly more by the recoil, that could well lead to an additional velocity decrease via additional induced drag. Not to mention if the pilot is executing some amount of 'porpoising' in pitch during this exercise.

Going back to basics, and invoking the physicist's favourite apparatus, the notional frictionless and massless sled, we can imagine a B-25 placed on such a sled and determining the recoil velocity. The simple reciprocity formula applies if the gun's barrel is in the plane of the surface upon which sled slides, AND all recoil energy is transferred to the plane as an essentially rigid structure. We can take the gun barrel to be sufficiently aligned with the plane's longitudinal axis that any vector component of velocity out of plane to be quite negligible.

Earlier I used a simple mass ratio of shell : plane of 1 : 1,000 for simplicity of calculation. If you know the actual masses and the shell's muzzle velocity, the same reciprocity principle applies. For instance, if the mass ratio is 1,685, the recoil velocity upon the plane is the muzzle velocity/1,685.

Inducement of recoil is an acceleration, occurring over the interval of the shell's acceleration through the barrel. It's brief enough to be sensed as essentially violently instantaneous. And so for our purposes we can consider recoil to be an instant application of velocity. If this kick were to be 1m/s, the plane on our sled will slide rearward at this speed, gradually slowing down to a stop due to air friction after some period of time.

If our plane, on its frictionless sled, is sliding down a slight decline of slope such that air friction imparts some particular terminal velocity, the recoil will instantly subtract from that velocity, after which the plane will speed back up to its former terminal velocity. This is akin to a plane in (more or less level) flight under application of continuous, fixed power. The higher the velocity, the greater the air friction and hence the longer the interval to regain a given speed lost to recoil. (The velocity curve of a body to friction-induced, terminal speed is somewhat asymptotic, meaning the rate of velocity change continually decreases as the terminal velocity is approached.)

It might bear on the matter to consider the component of recoil contributed by the propellant gas. To first order we take the powder mass and assign it some average velocity during the shell acceleration. Upon the shell's escape the gas rapidly evacuates and expands, dissipating a good fraction of its energy and thus probably imparting only a small additional component to recoil. Or maybe we could apply something of a best case scenario and simply treat the propellant like the shell, adding the two masses together and exiting at the muzzle velocity.

Anyway, just some useless musings on a slow spell to recharge between bouts of modding.  ;)
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Dimlee

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Re: B-25 with 75 mm gun vs ships
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2023, 02:41:55 PM »

...and the answers to the topic starter's questions can be found only after the numerous tests. Different ships, aircraft, angles, altitudes, speeds, and sections of ships to hit.
Years ago, I did some tests with all "big gun" aircraft vs ships in the stock game and I was not satisfied and never repeated the exercise. Hs 129 with 7.5 BK was the biggest disappointment for me. Since I still remembered the early days of Il-2 when Hs 129 was AI/external view only and it could sink a freighter with one well-placed shot. Hardly historical, but it was fun  :D
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Wing Walker

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Re: B-25 with 75 mm gun vs ships
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2023, 05:19:17 PM »

I played with the Mossy that had a 75, I think it was the Mossy, and I couldn't hit a ship with it very well so I gave up.

Was too hard to make a hit to test the damage potential of it.

Setting AI to do it didn't work well either.
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