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[Wing Walker]

Is anyone else not able to get jets to engage eachother?

I tried to set up a simple engagement in the FMB between the F-8 and F-4 with a longer approach than in the QMB.  I'm on the F-8 side...

Full missile loadouts for both, set to ACE, even targets "set as"...

They will not engage, the F-4's act like there is nothing there and just fly straight.  I even tried other a/c in the group and they all fly by.

A few of the F-8's launched a Sidewinders in the pass, more if the F-4's are flying slower, but the F-4s just fly out without reacting.

[FL2070]

Have you tried setting waypoint targets for the F-4s?

[Wing Walker]

Yes,
I used the "set" "target" to target the F-8 flight specifically under the way point tab where you set the altitude and speed.

But, I actually tested it by replacing 2 of the 4 F-4C flights I originally had with one F-8E flight, and one F-4B.

The Blue F-8E's engaged the Red F-8E's, but the B and C F-4's flew by in a direct head to head approach.

In QMB the F-8E's got on the tail of one flight of F-4C's and then they reacted with a small evasive maneuver when it got close almost like a bomber would, but nothing while Sidwinders were flying at them...

Do these F-4's have a bomber AI brain?

They are loaded out with AIM-9's and AIM-7's only...

[SAS~Storebror]

This happens to most if not all of the "missile-only" equipped fighters.
The reason for such planes' AI not engaging enemy fighters is within the internals of AI logic.
That logic simply says "If you've got no ammo left on trigger 1 and trigger 2 (guns & cannons), then you cannot engage enemy aircraft".
In Ultrapack we've got one such plane (MiG-17PF) and to overcome that issue, we've implemented a "fake" gun that carries a dozen bullets as long as there are missiles left (with auto-reload on every bullet spent) and 0 if not.
Works a treat.
Unfortunately, the creators of most (if not all) jet fighter mods didn't take this issue into account.
You can't blame BAT for this as BAT is merely a pack of existing mods than a new mod of its own.

Another issue with missiles of fast jets is that AI has no logic implemented whatsoever that would enable it to get into a promising shooting solution for the missiles it carries.
AI will always attempt to get into a gun-shooting solution.
Missiles get launched by a separate logic that simply checks whether or not the current solution falls within the missile's engagement envelope. AI's maneuvers don't care about what that envelope looks like.
As a result, short-range missiles with a wide envelope (all-aspect AIM-9s for instance) are much more likely to see AI launching them than mid/long-range missiles with a narrow envelope (early Sparrows for instance).

The solution to this would be a completely rewritten AI logic.
Go ahead, volunteers!


Mike

[UberDemon]

Interesting solution with the "fake" gun.  Could be a project to re-look at the modern fighters that carry A2A missiles.  Was recently reading a book on the Vietnam War and of all the official MiG (well and 2x An-2s) kills from 9 Apr 1965 to 12 Jan 1973 the vast majority of them were in the F-4 (several versions), overwhelmingly using the AIM-9 and AIM-7.  Second was the F-105, all except for one kill using 20mm (one was combo AIM-9/gun).  Crusaders came in third, with mostly AIM-9 kills.  Interesting were 3x A-1s with 20mm kills...  most interesting was the single A-4 kill of the war using Zuni unguided missiles... and two B-52 .50 tail gunner kills.  But I digress...  an AI fix even if using the fake gun would be a welcome addition.  Wish my Java chops were up to snuff, but they are not...

 

[Wing Walker]

Aw, that really sucks...

I came to that conclusion also about the having the gun, but was not sure if I was right, doing something wrong with building the mission, or if its a bug with the F-4.

I was hoping it was just a bug that could be fixed.




 

[enry711]

In on of my missions of Wings over 'Nam i was able to make the F-4 Phantoms a real menace for the player. They dogfight (or attempt at least) and shoot in BVR without hesitation, easily taking the player by surprise and efficently making the player use the terrain and manouvers to stay alive and avoid lock-ons.

I studied a lot the AI for jets just by observing them over and over again, and i managed to "trick" them in the end at doing what i want 

[SAS~Storebror]

No doubt they will engage in BVR fights - that's simply because the missile logic is completely decoupled from the remaining AI one, i.e. AI will launch missiles whenever it sees fit, no matter what.
But how did you get them to dogfight if they were not equipped with guns on trigger 1&2?
I could think of situations where AI tries to escape a fight like that, but real dogfighting?
I'd have to see it to believe.


Mike

[Wing Walker]

Ditto,
I was wondering how people can make missions if you can't put two missile equipped a/c against eachother.

[Glaciar]

Hello Ditto! I didn´t know nothing about this  particular situation with the AI... but I put a Mirage V Dagger, over an area and two Sea Harriers found him. There were a short fight and a Harrier shooted down the Mirage meanwhile this was chasing the other Harrier. You can see them on several videos on Youtube.

We recreate Malvinas´ War and we had very very realistics experiences fighting AI vs AI, AI vs Human, Human vs Human with a help of Radar Control Operator...
I know about the frustration on IL-2 Jet era, but this particular situation I never felt disapointed.

Keep trying!!

[SAS~Storebror]

Maybe you misunderstood: The claim was that enry711 succeeded in getting F-4 Phantoms (missile-only) to engage for real.
Nobody doubts that AI jets engage others when they carry guns.


Mike

[Wing Walker]

We recreate Malvinas´ War and we had very very realistics experiences fighting AI vs AI, AI vs Human, Human vs Human with a help of Radar Control Operator...
I know about the frustration on IL-2 Jet era, but this particular situation I never felt disapointed.

Keep trying!!

Are you talking about missile only loadouts?

Ok, so what am I doing wrong in putting a flight of F-8's against a flight of F-4's in a basic head on approach from a few minutes out from eachother?

I mean, its pretty basic to make that in the FMB.

enry711 succeeded in getting F-4 Phantoms (missile-only) to engage for real.
Nobody doubts that AI jets engage others when they carry guns.

He didn't actually say they were "missiles only", just that they were F-4's.

The F-8's and F-4's I had merged, the F-8's "dogfighted" while the F-4's with gun pods just flew around until they were killed, maybe launching 1 sparrow.