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Author Topic: Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.  (Read 3715 times)

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Mission_bug

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Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.
« on: May 21, 2023, 02:32:06 PM »

Cockpit for Dorand AR-1 French biplane spotter.




Hello guys, I have been meaning to take a look at this now for a very long time, especially since Mstislav made those awesome skins
for it but ill health and other things got in the way but finally I have got around to it. ;)

This comes from a request made in this thread:

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,68475.0.html

Mediafire link removed by me on 31st May, see further on for new link:



I did retire from all this insanity once but Alex continues to send me his amazing creative projects that I feel compelled to
get involved with, this sim torments me physically as well as mentally it seems and I just cannot stop tinkering.  :D

Anyway, back to the subject matter, I began work on this a few days ago:



As you can see there was a see through to the ground that needed attention so I took the mesh into gmax
and copied and flipped it:






I am going to focus on the pilot's cockpit, I very much doubt I will make a player controlled turret, too much stress and
messing and I really have not got the will anymore so keeping it as simple as I can.




I have now sorted selecting the cockpit parts and filling the gaps so the wings, struts and wires are there:









I tried first of all to just use cut down meshes for these but there was the usual problem of not quite mating up so I opted
to use the full wings and struts, however, these are in the folder and I will leave them so if those of you who use this want
to you can tinker and decide yourself:








Following a change in the pilot viewpoint today I noticed a few more see through gaps:




These parts are in gmax but I still need to flip them so they are not in the download:




The change of pilot view also means a slightly different look out back:



I have not looked to see if this aircraft has a damage model so not sure how these will behave if it has one and works
but I am only doing the cockpit, no going down the rabbit holes on damage for me on this one. :D

I just need now to find the instrument panel and gauges and a throttle maybe.

Any information on the instrumentation would be welcome so if any of you have that information then please post it up as it all helps. :)

I have no idea who we have to thank for the AI slot but I used the cockpit class from the RE8 and renamed it.
The stick and rudder bar are from the RE8 model as there were no parts I could see in the AR1 folder for those,
besides that there is no information in the model of the cockpit gauges, no texture or anything as you can see
in the image above.

If anyone has any thoughts on whether there is an existing aircraft in IL-2 that has a similar cockpit that I can
borrow things from then please show me it, failing that if any of you do have some good information on this type
then please post it here for me to look at.



When? No ideas sorry, ill health plagues my day and I have other things I need to do so only get a little time to
tinker, I help Alex first of all and so this project comes somewhere in between those and the Bedford model I am
trying to make so I cannot give a release date.


Okay, last post of the day, I need my bed. :D


Take care and be safe.


Wishing you all the very best, Pete. ;D




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Orge Schwab

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Re: Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2023, 03:35:23 PM »

I thought someone would have chimed in with full schematics of the cockpit by now, but as that hasn't happened...the Breguet 14 is a similar bird (armed recon) of French origin and has a nice cockpit that wouldn't look out of place in the Dorand AR-1.
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stiv_069

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Re: Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2023, 06:34:34 PM »

The plane turned out great!
Thank you very much. But you need to add 80 kg bombs.
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David Prosser

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Re: Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2023, 08:46:02 PM »

Ecellent! I'd wondered what it'd be like to fly. It does have a damage model. A single mission for a flyable version would be a high priority.

cheers

David

Mission_bug

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Re: Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2023, 03:05:57 AM »

I thought someone would have chimed in with full schematics of the cockpit by now, but as that hasn't happened...the Breguet 14 is a similar bird (armed recon) of French origin and has a nice cockpit that wouldn't look out of place in the Dorand AR-1.

Thanks for that Orge Schwab, I will take alook, it is the instrument panel I need mostly, the other bits come from the model, however, I have no information so I need help from you guys to get anywhere on this. ;)

The plane turned out great!
Thank you very much. But you need to add 80 kg bombs.

Hello Mstislav, glad you like it, as for the bombs, my intention is just to do the cockpit nothing more, I have not even looked at weapon fit or damage models or anything else. I would have thought that whoever did the slot might have given it a more comprehensive weapon fit, if that was done using cod files then I do not have the knowledge or tools for that anyway. Once the cockpit is done I might take a look, but no promises. :)

Ecellent! I'd wondered what it'd be like to fly. It does have a damage model. A single mission for a flyable version would be a high priority.

cheers

David

Glad you like it David. 8)

As already mentioned, without information I can do little, please post what you have if anything, otherwise I will just have to borrow something from another plane and try to make it look as plausible as I can. :D

Take care and be safe.

Wishing you all the very best, Pete. ;D
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Spider16

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Re: Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2023, 06:05:28 AM »



This video shows the cockpit interior of a "replica" - probably - of a Dorand AR-1. As there is no more precise information, I forward it for appreciation and, if possible, use by SAS modders for the benefit of the community.

Cheers 

Carlos
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Mission_bug

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Re: Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2023, 12:13:00 PM »

Hello Spider16, thank you very much for that really appreciated. 8)

I have bookmarked it so hopefully will not lose it, it shows instruments needed so hopefully I can find existing stuff in the sim to help replicate the panel in the video. ;)

Take care and be safe.

Wishing you all the very best, Pete. ;D
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David Prosser

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Re: Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2023, 11:53:14 PM »

Thanks, saved me asking Mr Google.

Mission_bug

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Re: Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2023, 07:11:29 AM »

Hello again guys, so, I looked at the parts I had already done and there seemed larger gaps in places, like the fit was bad,
so, I spent a few hours going through those again but it seems that is how they were made. I had slightly altered things
a little because usually when we clone these things for the inside, we make them slightly smaller so they can fit inside of
the external body parts, anyway, it was more the way they were made so no dramas, but it took time to go through them
again and the same time I tinkered with those the pilot view was lowered and so that was out of the way. ;)

Here is what I mean about the fit, they look loose so to speak, you can see the gaps, not what I thought for an aircraft
even of that vintage:




I put everything back together, I had hidden things to see what I was doing and then turned to the instrument panel
after looking at the video Spider posted.

I tried a texture on the area but it would only show on one half so I decided rather than try and re-texture
what I had it was better to make something to add over the existing parts:



This was mapped to a spare area of the existing texture but looked really too small, however, it would
do for the external view I thought:





The texture was an image borrowed from the video, not meant specifically to be a permanent part of the
panel more to help me see how and where things would need to go, something to help placement if you will
but it did not look so good in gmax and even worse in sim when seen in the external view when added into
the aircraft:



I decided to make the texture larger so it would look better on the mesh, this meant it would need
a texture just for the panel so I made one, not brilliant as I had taken it from the video so aligning
it was difficult but I messed around in Photoshop and then mapped it to the mesh again, it looked
a little better and much clearer now:



Sharpness is not really a problem as it is more meant to allow aligning of other sim textures already
available but it looks better than the bare wooden instrument face we have at the moment and so
I now have something to align parts to. Someone mentioned that the Breguet 14 might have a suitable
cockpit so I found some bits of that and they are what you see in the lower corner as a trial fit to see
how difficult it would be to adapt those to the AR-1, looks like there would not be much orientating to
do so that is good to know:



Here is the outside view:



However, here is the Breguet cockpit, mine has an odd viewpoint for the pilot like there is another
cockpit in front but that can wait for another day. As you can see the layout is quite different to
that above from the Microsoft flight model:




Watching the AR-1 video there are certain switches and instruments that are part of a modern aircraft, I would
assume that this is specifically due to the fact that MSF is more a modern simulation of the flying world and so
represents technology we have now, not WWI, even old warbirds I think would have to comply with certain modern
regulations. However, is that panel in the video authentic other than that? I think I have to assume that the model
was based on a surviving aircraft so really the Breguet panel will not do so it looks like I will have to find another
source for the gauges and their pointers rather than try and split the Breguet parts up.

So, what next? Would you rather just have the Breguet cockpit in full instead of the AR-1 cockpit parts?
Should I try and get it as close to the texture I made as possible but using parts from our sim?

Decisions, decissions, where to go next?


Anyway, for the moment I will have to ponder that, in the interim while all this comes together and is a properly working
cockpit do you want a link with the changes that added the texture for the instrument panel so you have something
that looks at least looks a little better than the blank panel?



Take care and be safe.

Wishing you all the very best, Pete. ;D
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Mission_bug

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Re: Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2023, 08:16:02 AM »

Hello again guys, just a little more tinkering. ;)

I installed the various instruments into the Dorand from the Breguet, here just placed roughly, I can
remove my panel and superimpose them over the existing Dorand panel:



Trouble is to get them to match the actual panel image might mean chopping up the meshes into pieces
because they might need to be placed different to how they are in the Breguet, that I will have to check
but I need to find a clear image first, what I am certain of is I cannot replicate the textures shown in the
AR1 video:




So, do I just use the Breguet instruments as they are, are you guys bothered if they are not fully authentic
as long as they work, or should I try and get things as near as I can as far as placement and type of gauge
at least?

Edit: My panel hidden:



Enough for today.

Take care and be safe.

Wishing you all the very best, Pete. ;D


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Orge Schwab

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Re: Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2023, 02:35:39 PM »

Hello,Pete,
Until someone comes up with a picture of a genuine Dorand cockpit, we can only guess whether the panel in the video is authentic. I've had a look around, but can't find anything definitive (though apparently Windsock did an article about Dorands some time ago: 'The French AR Biplanes, Windsock International Vol 6 #5 (Sept-Oct 1990) & Vol 7 #1 (Jan-Feb 1991)). Only about 140 of these things were built, so it's hardly surprising that information is scant. My feeling is that it isn't authentic - it looks suspiciously modern to me (I temper that with an acknowledgment that French designers were often ahead of their time during the 'D.O.F'). However, people on the MSFS website seem to agree, criticising the panel for looking too modern (chrome bezels are definitely out - they would have been polished brass or enamelled).

I did find an article by historian Jack Herris about the Dorands AR 1 and 2, and he states that the pilot had two windows in the floor of his cockpit, the observer having one, plus a camera port. The Wikipedia page for Dorands has a tantalising picture of an AR-1 which reveals that the cockpit coaming ahead of the pilot was curved (like the Breguet's), not flat topped - though I realise you have to work with what you have.

Looking at the instrument panels in machines of similar vintage, it is obvious that the majority had very few gauges. Four or five at the most, with no logical sweep pattern. The Breguet 14 actually has a very complete set for its day.

My guess would be that the Dorand AR-1 had only the essentials (it was built to a budget and not highly regarded by the French, which is why they sold it to other air forces). Most likely, it had an airspeed indicator, an altimeter, an oil pressure gauge and a clock - and not a lot else. Things like oil temp, rpm gauge, turn and bank indicator, rate of climb indicator, fuel gauge - even a compass - were either unavailable or rarely provided during WW1, so I wouldn't sweat about including every last gauge - until we have more definite info.

It seems there were several versions of this machine, differing in engine fit and place of manufacture. Farman made quite a few, so their aircraft might also provide inspiration for panel gauges (courtesy of Fournier and Jaeger).

Incidentally, this machine was replaced in French service by the Salmson SAL 2A, which in IL2 has a VERY basic instrument panel.

Hope this is of some use - I'll be happy with whatever you decide to do.
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Mission_bug

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Re: Cockpit WIP for Dorand AR-1 French biplane.
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2023, 04:11:40 PM »

Hello Orge Schwab, thank you very much for your thoughts, really appreciated. 8)

When folks ask for things in the community you hope that they can help with information as I do not have it, WWI stuff is not my subject if you will. I have made a few slots mainly because no one else would in some instances and here we are again, someone made a slot but left it without a cockpit at the time so it makes it difficult for me to do anything without some good information from those who want to use this aircraft. I looked myself for information but came up with nothing of any consequence so here we are. I did have a large collection of Windsock titles that I was sent in PDF form, I only have a few actual editions myself from scale model projects, unfortunately though my external drive they were on is unusable and I don't think the Dorand was there. I can make stuff but as I already mentioned I thought the aircraft in the video had too modern looking a cockpit, and from what you say many others also. The hope was it was based on some factual information, at least the main instruments, however, it seems there is nothing much out there to confirm or deny what is in MSF. I hazard a guess that as pointed out by someone earlier our Breguet might be closer than anything else so maybe I will just go with that instrument cluster above and just get those dials working and leave it there.
I really do not want to start building or cutting up what I have without having something to go on besides what we already have, I think maybe I should just add the java to make work what is shown above from the Breguet and be done. I will sleep on it, I am unable to do big projects anymore so unless someone can post any kind of cockpit image, we have what we have, do it and be dammed, I guess.
Anyway, thank you again for the post, it is really appreciated.

Take care and be safe.

Wishing you all the very best, Pete. ;D
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