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[tomoose]

WxTech;
yes online play requires all players to be using the same mods otherwise there are conflicts.  That said, I've noticed that if a player doesn't have the C&C mod they can still play but will not see certain effects from C&C with no other ill effects to play.  Other mods if not all on will result in inability to join/play.

On the other hand, even with all players having the same mod we've had discussions about visibilty.  Certain players, for example, will see a coastline well ahead of me and I won't see it for another minute or two.  In discussion we compared conf.ini settings etc and I tweaked mine but to no apparent change.  One of our members stated that his resolution was dialed back a bit and perhaps that was a reason but that seems counterintuitive. 

[Wing Walker]

So.. I have tried to do individual waypoints but to no luck. The back formations can't keep up with the main formation, no matter what I do, any tips?

I'm using pure BAT...

I had a mission where I was pulling my hair out like you trying to work with 13 B-24's, 4 P-40s, 4 P-38s, and 4 F4Us... trying to make them all fly together in a full length mission.

It did not matter what I did...

Linking with the "set target" didn't work either.

All of the planes would go into some sort of default behavior and put them selves in the same position during the flight.

Like the P-40s would always go North of the group and fly a line there, even when I put them in the South position.  The B-24's would always spread out into a line, had them in 4 flights.

2 B-24 flights would fly close together, but overall they would spread out into a long 1Km to .5Km line.

I could not get them to stay even in a general loose formation, they would all just spread out in a line. 

AND... the way point lines were never overlapping.

I think if you get them all in the general area together you just need to say fuck it.

If someone has done it, I would like to see a full mission of screen shots in the FMB where all bombers are linked together, fly together to the target, bomb the target together, and then RTB all together.

A lot of Man Hours to make yourself go nuts.

[Sergent Pepper]

Did you set speeds (same for all, bombers and fighters)?
And can you post your mission here?

[tomoose]

Heading out:

Me, limping home (didn't make it):


This is as close as you'll probably get.  These are individual waypoints and trial and error with some SET commands.  As I mentioned in a previous post, the speed of the AI MUST be reduced (I set the max speed of AI bombers to 245) and 100% fuel for the AI, 80% for the humans.  I should point out that this is the best formation we've had in the past ten missions, they are usually a lot more strung out than this.  In this particular mission the bombers stayed together a LOT better than previous missions and we had a good drop on Rotterdam. Flights of 3 (to reflect historical accuracy regarding heavy bomber tactics in '43).
NOTE:  I had SET the following flight of three to my flight and a SET command from a third flight to the second flight.  In theory that works fine but in this particular case when I dove hard to try and put out my #4 engine fire(after exhausting the fire extinguisher, stopping the engine and feathering prop), the rest of the flights followed me and got a bit messed up.  Once I levelled out they settled back into formation.  So the SET command will indeed keep formations together but it comes with a price if the 'lead' flight is damaged or destroyed.  As we were on the way home I should have given the 'return to base' command so that they would not follow my gyrations when trying to save my plane.

Jackstone's Big Bird campaign does a decent job of trying to coordinate the bomber formations however it was not meant for online.  I 'converted' it to online with the changes stated above plust taking advantage of some of the C&C objects (i.e. flak barrage).

Here's a link to our webpage with some previous mission screenshots (see Ops).   https://381st.nfshost.com/index.html

Hope this helps.

[SAS~Storebror]

the SET command will indeed keep formations together but it comes with a price if the 'lead' flight is damaged or destroyed.

In Ultrapack I'm currently experimenting with a code enhancement that will cause each flights lead to change positions with other elements in the flight in case of damage.
The idea is to have an undamaged flight lead as long as possible, and the least damaged one in case all flight elements receive damage.
In the latter case, if the flight is part of a bigger formation, it will simply be removed from that formation in case all elements are damaged.


Mike

[tomoose]

That would help a lot I think and provide a bit more flexibility for the "leader" overall.

[SAS~Storebror]

I'm afraid I have to take back my previous statement.
IL-2's internal logic doesn't allow us to change aircraft positions in wings/groups/formations.
IL-2 strictly insists that airplanes need to take a position inside a formation according to their squadron/flight/airplane number.
The lowest number is always the leader, no matter what.
Even if in code the leader/wingman designations get changed, IL-2 tries to arrange the formation according to the strict number scheme.
Therefore e.g. in a four-ship formation (1-2-3-4), if the leader gets damaged, we can't swap positions to make it another four-ship (2-1-3-4).
The utmost we can do is to check whether the leader is still capable of maneuvering (which unfortunately is still "true" from IL-2's point of view even when the plane is inevitably spiraling to ground) and if not, remove the plane from the formation.

A series of tests involving 3- and 4-ship formations with fighters, twin-engine bombers, and four-engine bombers, yielded disappointing results.
At each position "swap" inside a flight, the whole formation breaks apart.
Fighters and twin-engine bombers manage to rejoin some sort of "random" formation (the pattern simply is wrong as all offsets get messed up).
Four-engine bombers never ever find back to any sort of formation, they will start spreading all across the map.


Mike

[tomoose]

Thanks for trying that out Mike.  At least we know now.

If the 'leader' is a human then I guess the only option, once damaged would either be giving an 'abort' command or a 'return to base' command, hopefully after the target so at least the flight won't slavishly follow the 'leader'.  For the other flights that have AI 'leaders' I guess we're stuck with the existing program logic. 

[SAS~Storebror]

One thing that works is removing the leader from the formation once he's damaged to a point where he probably cannot follow waypoints anymore.
Currently I'm trying the following in Ultrapack, and so far the results are at least a tad more promising than the stock behaviour:

• If the leader is damaged and not capable of "air combat maneuvering" anymore (there's a flag in the flight model indicating this), remove him from the formation.
  Works for both AI and human pilots, but there are edge cases where "isCapableOfACM" still returns true when in fact AI pilots already lost control. Bad luck.
• Flights of heavy airplanes (in IL-2 AI logic terms these are "transports", even B-17s fall into that category) don't break formation unless they have no gunners alive anymore.
• If the leader of a "heavy" flight breaks formation (in defense, no gunner available), he will get removed from the flight.

Note that anything falling into the "fighter" category (which included twin engine bombers capable of strafing ground targets) will still follow their leader during defensive maneuvers.
That's okay IMHO because they could potentially give cover to each other like fighters do.


Mike

[Frankiek]

If I remember well in early versions of IL-2 in fighter formation if flight leader was incapacitated the rest of the flight was automatically following number two.  Actually in IL-2 Sturmovik it was a chain so if you fly number two and don't follow the leader the rest of the flight would follow you however as number two you couldn't issue any order. It was quite funny to brake the sacred rules of military hierarchy. 

[tomoose]

Mike;
just thinking out loud (I haven't programmed in decades) but what about the logic used in the 'abort' or 'return to base' commands in the orders list?  Would it be possible to reverse or modify that so to speak.  i.e. In addition to the leader telling the flight to 'abort' or 'return to base', the leader also has a command option to give himself the 'abort' or 'return' to base thereby forcing the hand-off or cutting the umbilical cord as it were.  i.e. if this 'order' is selected then the flag status of the leader aircraft is changed to either notACM or 'aborted' or whatever flag value is appropriate.

I'm guessing the lowest number aspect you mentioned prevents that.

Perhaps that's what you're already trying to do in which case, disregard my lame attempt at helping. 

[SAS~Storebror]

Indeed the current code I'm testing already removes damaged leaders from the formation, which covers this issue.

Some other formation testing, just for you information.
Some new formation types are illustrated here, and you can see how a 16-ship squadron (4x4 B-17 in combat box formation) survives several formation changes and a 90° turn:




Mike